Author Topic: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'  (Read 5853 times)

zahc

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Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« on: January 24, 2009, 11:42:11 PM »
And motorcycles, and skateboards, and just about everything else.

For those unawares, it seems our overlords have quietly increased the Federal excise tax on cigars (wait, there there is a federal excise tax on cigars?) from $.05 to something like $.40, or like $10 a box. To fund 'health insurance', for children of course; it's always the children.

http://www.stogieguys.com/2009/01/01132009-stogie-news-schip-cigar-tax-increase.html

http://www.stogieguys.com/2007/08/08302007-stogie-news-us-tax-hike-spells-devastation-for-esteli.html

Chips like this against unpopular activities are the ground work for universal government health care. Rest assured that once more things like this are in place and we have even more socialized health care the feds can and will regulate all aspects of your life by regulating any act they deems hinders your health.

Can we have a Boston Tobacco party?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 11:45:49 PM by zahc »
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2009, 12:25:33 AM »
Quote
Can we have a Boston Tobacco party?

Very sensible.

Stop buying any tobacco.  I'm sure Big Tobacco would quickly have their lobby working hand in hand with the "4tehchildrenz" lobby in order to reduce the tax to a point where revenues started back up again.

It would take momentous will power on the part of the American public, though.  Cold-turkey will power.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2009, 12:35:32 AM »
I think I'll wait until they actually come after the guns/ammo in that way and then worry about the guns/ammo.

Frankly, I would have fewer medical expenses if no one around me smoked.  The whole "free to not go there" argument only goes so far.  Hell, the nurse caring for me in a respiratory care unit reeked of smoke and worsened the breathing problem that had put in there in the first place. Now tell me, if a person if respiratory distress is "choosing" to expose himself to tobacco residue by going to a respiratory care unit in a hospital, where the heck is it safe to go?

I admit that personal experience has reshaped my opinion of punitive and restrictive smoking laws and taxes.  I now agree that if people are going to impose enormous additional burdens on the rest of us by insisting on smoking--on the street, in the doorways of just about every classroom building in the country, in all kinds of difficult or impossible to avoid places, and then carry their residue with them all over the place, then they should bear some of the cost burden they place on everyone else.  

Widespread use and ownership of guns and ammo, however, are a social good.  They encourage hunting, an integral part of wildlife management, and they provide a fairly reliable stream of experienced or at least interested marksman for the military, and to a lesser extent, to police forces.  They also have a demonstrated effect on reducing home invasions and related crimes.  While the last is for some reason controversial, the first two are not, and indeed are supported by a variety of government programs, including DNR hunting programs, public ranges, and the CMP.

Legally, guns ownership and use is an enumerated fundamental right, whereas tobacco may potentially, if you really, really reach, be squashed into a general, unenumerated privacy right.  Probably not though, considering the number of dangerous and less dangerous substances that are currently restricted by US governments.  

Sorry, I refuse to get worked up over purchasers of luxury goods that are invariably harmful to other people--including children, worthy of specific mention because they do not have the option of choosing to not go where the smokers are--being required to pay additional taxes to partially defray the costs their behavior inflicts upon the rest of us.  

Hm, actually I've gotten pretty worked up, but it's more about the logical leap from something invariably harmful to something nearly always beneficial.


« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 12:50:02 AM by BridgeWalker »

Manedwolf

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2009, 12:37:54 AM »
I personally wish people would go back to smoking pipes. Far more pleasant. If they raise taxes enough on cigarettes, but not ordinary tobacco, they just might!

Monkeyleg

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2009, 01:05:19 AM »
Even though I'm now a non-smoker (nearly five months) I can never stop being infuriated at the double standard leveled at smokers.

Every time I hear a politician say he wants to raise taxes "for the children" I want to douse him in gasoline and toss a lit cig at him.

Wisconsin raised cigarette taxes by $1 a pack last year. That raked in somewhere in the neighborhood of $300 million last year, of which only a few million has gone towards smoking cessation programs and tobacco education programs. The rest of the loot was used to plug the holes in general revenues caused by runaway liberal spending. It went to pork projects that paid back the interest groups who raised the campaign cash.

Quote
I think I'll wait until they actually come after the guns/ammo in that way and then worry about the guns/ammo.

By then it will be too late. The anti-smoking crowd was careful to take very small steps, starting in the 1970's and culminating in outrageous taxes and statewide (and even countrywide) smoking bans. I suspect that the anti-gunners have once again looked at the successes of the anti-smoking groups and decided that patience pays off.



dogmush

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2009, 02:34:09 AM »
Quote
I think I'll wait until they actually come after the guns/ammo in that way and then worry about the guns/ammo.

Sort of like this:
http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2007/oct/14/governor-oks-lead-bullet-ban/

Yes I know it's not exactly the same, but it's definatly setting up bullets as an environmental health risk.  Sort of how the anti-smoking groups started.


Let me be the first to say I hate the way smokers smell.  When my wife smoked, I nagged her incessently to quit, and she finally did.  But tobacco (IMO) falls into the same catagory as alcohalisim recreational drug use.  It's not a bright idea, but if you want to mess up your body, go for it.  Just don't expect my taxes to pay for your emphyzema.  The gov shouldn't be useing taxes to try and change peoples legal behavior.  Bad precident there.

Nitrogen

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2009, 03:15:49 AM »
The smoking issue proves what a two-faced butt I am about the freedom issue.

While I support the right of smokers to smoke wherever they want, I don't complain that loudly when smoking bans are established.  I hate the smell; and I am allergic. 

I wouldn't cry too hard if hese types of bans were ruled unconstitutional.

I am afraid that gun stuff will start to go this way, thoug.  That would be bad.
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Werewolf

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2009, 10:53:28 AM »
Smoking killed both my parents. One by lung cancer and the other by emphysema.

Do I hold that against the Tobacco industry and all those who choose to smoke?

NOPE. they were adults, smart, well educated and free to choose what they did with their bodies.

You wanna kill yourself slowly by smoking - by all means - do so.

JUST DON'T DO IT AROUND ME! AND DEFINITELY DON'T EXPECT ME TO PAY FOR YOUR POOR CHOICES.
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Standing Wolf

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2009, 11:59:42 AM »
Divide. Conquer. Move on.
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jackdanson

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2009, 12:35:36 PM »
Quote
to expose himself to tobacco residue by going to a respiratory care unit in a hospital, where the heck is it safe to go?

What is tobacco residue?  I'm pretty sure smelling someones smokey clothes, though nasty, isn't going to make you sick.  I can see being concerned if you work in a bar or something, but I really think the second hand smoke stuff is blown waaay out of proportion.  I love it when the 2 250+lbs people at my work complain about having to walk by the smokers...  they are worried about their health.. ummm then drop the mcdonalds buddy.

If you don't like the smoke in a place, don't go there.  Feel free to inform management why.  But I def. don't think that there should be laws banning it.

oh yeah I don't smoke

Monkeyleg

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2009, 06:08:46 PM »
Quote
I love it when the 2 250+lbs people at my work complain about having to walk by the smokers...  they are worried about their health.. ummm then drop the mcdonalds buddy.

Yep. A few years ago my wife and I were at a wine and harvest festival in a chic town north of Milwaukee. We were walking down the street, smoking. There were three women behind us. One said something like, "let's wait here a minute for these smokers to get further away."

I turned to her and said, "madam, judging by your girth, I'd say that second-hand smoke is the least of your health concerns."

As for nurses who reek of smoke, I didn't know that smells could kill.


BridgeRunner

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2009, 09:11:42 PM »
What is tobacco residue?  I'm pretty sure smelling someones smokey clothes, though nasty, isn't going to make you sick.

You're wrong.   

Smells are composed of particles. 

Peanut allergies are triggered by smells sometimes, all kinds of allergies and sensitivities are triggered by perfumes of various kinds.  There are all kinds of toxic things that are airborne and the tipoff is often the smell.

The difference is that unless peanuts and perfumes, tobacco smoke residue is toxic to everyone.  Some more than others, but toxic all the same.

Standing Wolf

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2009, 10:21:25 PM »
Quote
The difference is that unless peanuts and perfumes, tobacco smoke residue is toxic to everyone.  Some more than others, but toxic all the same.

Tobacco smoke is neither more nor less toxic than wood smoke or smoke from burning leaves: if you breathe enough of it, it will asphyxiate you.

The so-called "science" behind the toxicity of tobacco is fake. I didn't say it's mistaken. I didn't say it's erroneous. I said it's fake.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2009, 11:35:58 PM »
The so-called "science" behind the toxicity of tobacco is fake. I didn't say it's mistaken. I didn't say it's erroneous. I said it's fake.

Well, there it is.  I'll go buy me a pack of Marlboros then, now that I have your personal assurance that a field of science you don't like is fake.   :rolleyes:

zahc

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2009, 11:40:55 PM »
Marlboros are terrible. If you must smoke common cigarettes at least spring for Camels.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2009, 11:47:30 PM »
Marlboros are terrible. If you must smoke common cigarettes at least spring for Camels.

Dude, I still have my last two (empty) packs of Marlboros sitting in my liquor cabinet for the past several years.  Do not mess with the Marlboros.

makattak

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2009, 10:35:08 AM »
You're wrong.   

Smells are composed of particles. 

Peanut allergies are triggered by smells sometimes, all kinds of allergies and sensitivities are triggered by perfumes of various kinds.  There are all kinds of toxic things that are airborne and the tipoff is often the smell.

The difference is that unless peanuts and perfumes, tobacco smoke residue is toxic to everyone.  Some more than others, but toxic all the same.

BW,

In this case, I would say you are an outlier. To base your position for a smoking ban on your experience is... unfair.

To most people it is an annoyance. To you, it triggers an allergic reaction. Would you say that the people who are allergic to perfume have a right to have it banned in the public square?

I can tell you that I end up coughing from people "over-perfuming" just as I do from smokers at times. Both are annoyances to me.

I don't see any reason to force people to stop their annoying behavior simply for my own convenience.

It sucks that some people have allergies, but such people should take extra care to avoid the triggers.

I am aware it is not always possible.

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coppertales

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2009, 11:41:51 AM »
I have been riding motorcycles for over 50 years and shooting much longer than that.  I tried smoking in high school but it did nothing for me.  I puffed on a smoke in the air force because if you did not smoke, you did not get a 10 minute break every  hour.  I might have one good cigar a year.  I drink in moderation except on work days.  I drink because I like it.  Usually two drinks, maybe three at the most.  I can't stand smoker's stink.  I don't like walking through a cloud of smoke to get into a building.  I don't like it when smokers get paid more than I do for the same job, because of their 10 minute each hour smoke break that I don't get.  However, cigar and pipe smoke does not bother me.  Must be all those chemicals they put in cigarettes......chris3

HankB

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2009, 12:58:35 PM »
I grew up in a household with two smokers; smoking contributed to my Dad's death at 66, and my mother's triple bypass at 74.

I never smoked, nor did I ever like the smell of tobacco smoke. (Now my mother dislikes the smell of tobacco smoke, too. Go figure.)

Now the nanny-staters are trying to FORCE businesses like restaurants and bars to ban smoking, and take on police powers to ENFORCE this ban.  :mad:

I vehemently disagree with this.

Nobody is compelled to patronize smoky venues, and government ought not meddle with whether or not a private business can or can't permit customer use of a legal product.

Don't like smoke? Eat or drink elsewhere. (You're a waitress or bartender? Was smoking allowed there when you applied for the job? It was? Tough cookies.)
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CNYCacher

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2009, 04:51:28 PM »
Learning to Smoke

I bookmarked this page quite some time ago (feels like a year maybe) because I found it very interesting.  I feel it is relevant to this discussion.
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Uncle Bubba

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2009, 05:49:05 PM »
Learning to Smoke

I bookmarked this page quite some time ago (feels like a year maybe) because I found it very interesting.  I feel it is relevant to this discussion.

"Very interesting" is a good way to describe it. Thanks.
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Nitrogen

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Re: Only a matter of time till guns/ammo are 'unhealthy'
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2009, 07:18:50 PM »
smoking bans in various places lead to some interesting economics.

We have two Outback Steakhouses near  I used to work.  They are both less than a mile away from each other.  One's in an area that allows smoking, and one is in an area that bans smoking.

The smoking ban drives the smokers and people who don't care to one, and the non smokers to the other.

Me?  I'd usually go eat at the smokers one cuz it was less busy during the day.  Strangely enough, on the weekends, it'd be packed, while the nonsmoking one would be emptier.

I should have gone to university to study economics; it fascinates me as I get older.
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