Author Topic: Obama preserves renditions as counter-terrorism tool (Read 16607 times)

Ron · « **on:** February 02, 2009, 10:27:53 AM »

Change and hope run aground on the rocks of reality.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-na-rendition1-2009feb01,0,4661244.story

Jamisjockey · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2009, 10:47:04 AM »

Quote from: Ron on February 02, 2009, 10:27:53 AM

Change and hope run aground on the rocks of reality.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-na-rendition1-2009feb01,0,4661244.story

Color me liberal but I just don't agree with Rendition. If its against our laws to treat prisoners that way, WTF are we doing giving them to countries that will?
Obama just proved he did whatever it took to get elected.

AJ Dual · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2009, 10:54:41 AM »

Quote from: JamisJockey on February 02, 2009, 10:47:04 AM

Color me liberal but I just don't agree with Rendition. If its against our laws to treat prisoners that way, WTF are we doing giving them to countries that will?
Obama just proved he did whatever it took to get elected.

Yep, and I got ripped on in PI for saying "closing" Gitmo would do just this...

Ron · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2009, 10:57:11 AM »

A new president doesn't want to alienate the intelligence establishment right out of the box.

There was a lot of political damage done to President Bush by "leaks" from unnamed sources at the CIA and then the whole Valerie Plame thing which emanated from the CIA.

There is (putting on the tin foil hat

) an entrenched bureaucracy that is for all intents and purposes a shadow government. Politicians come and go but many of these agencies have folks that are there from one administration to the next.

Quote

Color me liberal but I just don't agree with Rendition. If its against our laws to treat prisoners that way, WTF are we doing giving them to countries that will?
Obama just proved he did whatever it took to get elected.

You aren't liberal, your position is consistent with an elevated view of human rights.

I think rendition and some forms of torture have always been used or at our disposal. It just wasn't talked about in the open.

ronnyreagan · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2009, 10:59:01 AM »

"He said he was stripped of his clothes, placed in a diaper and blindfolded before being taken aboard a plane in shackles -- an account that matches other descriptions of prisoners captured in the rendition program."

This does not sound like America as a shining city upon a hill whose beacon light guides freedom-loving people everywhere. Far from it.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2009, 11:25:41 AM »

rr you see that method of transport as akin to torture?

ilbob · « **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2009, 11:27:05 AM »

Quote from: JamisJockey on February 02, 2009, 10:47:04 AM

Color me liberal but I just don't agree with Rendition. If its against our laws to treat prisoners that way, WTF are we doing giving them to countries that will?
Obama just proved he did whatever it took to get elected.

just what law does it violate?

Balog · « **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2009, 11:27:31 AM »

"Intents and purposes" not intensive purposes. Pet peeve.

Ron · « **Reply #8 on:** February 02, 2009, 11:31:56 AM »

Quote from: Balog on February 02, 2009, 11:27:31 AM

"Intents and purposes" not intensive purposes. Pet peeve.

Thanks

ronnyreagan · « **Reply #9 on:** February 02, 2009, 11:46:03 AM »

Quote from: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 02, 2009, 11:25:41 AM

rr you see that method of transport as akin to torture?

Yes - and the fact that they get transported to a place where they will be tortured doesn't help. For someone who hasn't been convicted of anything it seems extreme and unnecessarily dehumanizing. The mistaken identity incident referenced in the article is especially troubling.

Bogie · « **Reply #10 on:** February 02, 2009, 12:02:25 PM »

At the same time, it might not hurt for a -few- stories to get out... If Abduhl is involved in planning for an attack on my kids' school, I want him scared after he gets busted.

Doesn't matter if the stories are true, or not... I want him scared...

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #11 on:** February 02, 2009, 12:08:43 PM »

you really call that torture? you gotta close one eye and squint through the other to do that? shucks and here i thought they did that because they always transfer real high risk prisoners like that so they and everyone else on the airplane are safe. diapers so no one gets to rasie their hand to go potty masks keep the guys from learning the procedures using that to plan a break or passing the info on so next batch could plan a break.

i bet you don't like those nasty handcukks and shacles either... how would a smart young man like you transport those types of prisoners? tjey hada get a lil creative with some prisoners in ww2 to keep em from commiting suicide

Ron · « **Reply #12 on:** February 02, 2009, 12:08:59 PM »

This post is copied from another forum, the link to the blog it was taken from didn't work.

The before and after is the election of President Obama

Quote

Human Rights Watch: Before
Human Rights Watch, a very respected and passionate defender of civil liberty, was one of the most vocal critics of the CIA's rendition program. In fact, Human Rights Watch prepared a comprehensive document that reports incidents of alleged torture of rendered individuals. The report makes the following policy recommendations:

   The US government should:

   Repudiate the use of rendition to torture as a counterterrorism tactic and permanently discontinue the CIA's rendition program;

   Disclose the identities, fate, and current whereabouts of all persons detained by the CIA or rendered to foreign custody by the CIA since 2001, including detainees who were rendered to Jordan;

   Repudiate the use of "diplomatic assurances" against torture and ill-treatment as a justification for the transfer of a suspect to a place where he or she is at risk of such abuse;

   Make public any audio recordings or videotapes that the CIA possesses of interrogations of detainees rendered by the CIA to foreign custody;

   Provide appropriate compensation to all persons arbitrarily detained by the CIA or rendered to foreign custody (emphasis added).

Human Rights Watch rightfully opposed the practice of torture by the Bush administration, but it also demanded the cessation of rendition and that victims of the practice receive compensation.

The organization's recommendations went even farther, however. In order to make sure that the program ended, Human Rights Watch recommended that other countries should:

   Refuse to cooperate in secret detention and rendition efforts, and disclose all information about past cooperation in such efforts (emphasis added).

Human Rights Watch: After
Now that the L.A. Times reports that rendition will continue during the Obama administration, Human Rights Watch has apparently altered its position. According to Tom Malinowski, the organization's "Washington advocacy director," the risk of torture and other abuses does not mandate the prophylactic cessation of rendition. Instead (quoting the L.A. Times):

   "Under limited circumstances, there is a legitimate place" for renditions, said Tom Malinowski, the Washington advocacy director for Human Rights Watch. "What I heard loud and clear from the president's order was that they want to design a system that doesn't result in people being sent to foreign dungeons to be tortured -- but that designing that system is going to take some time."

   Malinowski said he had urged the Obama administration to stipulate that prisoners could be transferred only to countries where they would be guaranteed a public hearing in an official court. "Producing a prisoner before a real court is a key safeguard against torture, abuse and disappearance," Malinowski said (emphasis added).

ronnyreagan · « **Reply #13 on:** February 02, 2009, 12:49:18 PM »

Quote from: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 02, 2009, 12:08:43 PM

you really call that torture? you gotta close one eye and squint through the other to do that? shucks and here i thought they did that because they always transfer real high risk prisoners like that so they and everyone else on the airplane are safe. diapers so no one gets to rasie their hand to go potty masks keep the guys from learning the procedures using that to plan a break or passing the info on so next batch could plan a break.

i bet you don't like those nasty handcukks and shacles either... how would a smart young man like you transport those types of prisoners? tjey hada get a lil creative with some prisoners in ww2 to keep em from commiting suicide

You asked if it was akin to torture - I said it was. I did not "call that torture" and I would not call that torture but I would say that it is similar in quality or character. These guys aren't super villains, some of them are even cases of mistaken identity - handcuffs, shackles and orange jumpsuits seem perfectly adequate to me.

I don't have a problem with detaining people (briefly) but I do have a problem with people being abducted and taken to Egypt to be tortured. The transport method is extreme in my opinion, but not the main issue. It is merely the bad beginning to a trip that becomes very nasty, and in my opinion Un-American.

MicroBalrog · « **Reply #14 on:** February 02, 2009, 12:58:36 PM »

Quote from: ilbob on February 02, 2009, 11:27:05 AM

just what law does it violate?

It's not illegal. It's immoral.

Ron · « **Reply #15 on:** February 02, 2009, 01:11:15 PM »

Quote from: MicroBalrog on February 02, 2009, 12:58:36 PM

It's not illegal. It's immortal.

sp. immoral?

MicroBalrog · « **Reply #16 on:** February 02, 2009, 01:15:36 PM »

Grr. Yes. Hopefully it is mortal.

buzz_knox · « **Reply #17 on:** February 02, 2009, 01:25:19 PM »

I'm shocked, shocked that Human Rights Watch modified its stance after its candidate won. :rolleyes:

I will be equally shocked if I discover the snow outside consists of frozen water.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #18 on:** February 02, 2009, 01:45:37 PM »

they transport regular high security prisoners in much the same way. i don't know about the diapers but the flights are shorter.were it me i'd transport them sedated and on gurneys , also in diapers , but i'm sure someones panties would knot over that too

roo_ster · « **Reply #19 on:** February 02, 2009, 03:06:05 PM »

Man, this is too funny for words.

Keep the jihadis in Guantanamo in comfort and with ridiculous levels of deference paid to their well-being: Not acceptable and an affront to human dignity.

Turn jihadis over to some of our less-savory allies to be turned over an open fire and shot in the back of the head when they have outlived their usefulness: Just fine & dandy.

Comparing secure transport of dangerous folks to torture is to torture the English language.

slugcatcher · « **Reply #20 on:** February 02, 2009, 03:29:00 PM »

Quote from: ronnyreagan on February 02, 2009, 10:59:01 AM

"He said he was stripped of his clothes, placed in a diaper and blindfolded before being taken aboard a plane in shackles -- an account that matches other descriptions of prisoners captured in the rendition program."

This does not sound like America as a shining city upon a hill whose beacon light guides freedom-loving people everywhere. Far from it.

Diaper rash is torture now? :rolleyes: The guy is a terrorist. He's lucky we even told anyone we captured him.

MicroBalrog · « **Reply #21 on:** February 02, 2009, 03:29:38 PM »

Quote from: slugcatcher on February 02, 2009, 03:29:00 PM

Diaper rash is torture now? :rolleyes: The guy is a terrorist. He's lucky we even told anyone we captured him.

He is a suspect

ronnyreagan · « **Reply #22 on:** February 02, 2009, 03:32:05 PM »

Quote from: jfruser on February 02, 2009, 03:06:05 PM

Keep the jihadis in Guantanamo in comfort and with ridiculous levels of deference paid to their well-being: Not acceptable and an affront to human dignity.

You know it almost seems nice when you gloss over the solitary confinement, water boarding, and being held for years on end without outside contact or a trial. Funny how ignoring all the negative aspects of something makes it seem better!

ronnyreagan · « **Reply #23 on:** February 02, 2009, 03:43:54 PM »

Quote from: slugcatcher on February 02, 2009, 03:29:00 PM

Diaper rash is torture now? :rolleyes: The guy is a terrorist. He's lucky we even told anyone we captured him.

First of all, no one said it was torture - in fact I specifically said it was not. It's more like the warm up session before the torture.
Second, the guy was not a terrorist. If you read the article the guy was completely innocent.

Werewolf · « **Reply #24 on:** February 02, 2009, 04:06:05 PM »

Quote from: ronnyreagan on February 02, 2009, 03:43:54 PM

First of all, no one said it was torture - in fact I specifically said it was not. It's more like the warm up session before the torture.
Second, the guy was not a terrorist. If you read the article the guy was completely innocent.

Unlike in the pink sky blue bunny world in which liberal blow hards live - in the real world sometimes the innocent are caught in the fallout necessary to catch and punish the guilty.

That's not to say we shouldn't try to minimize the innocent getting hurt but sometimes it happens - deal with it!

News:

Author Topic: Obama preserves renditions as counter-terrorism tool (Read 16607 times)