Author Topic: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!  (Read 22442 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2009, 10:47:50 AM »
Quote
Is it partisan to vote against one bill, then give passing support to one bill and then, under the next adminstration, completely oppose an entirely different bill?  Of course not.

FTFY
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Why did Republicans support the Bush bailout, but not Obama's?
« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2009, 11:53:12 AM »
Merged threads, Lone_Gunman didn't need to create a separate one.

Here's the link for JamisJockey:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/02/gop.stimulus.worries/index.html

If it looks like pork, and smells like pork...  :|

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Gewehr98

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2009, 02:26:52 PM »
I also put the list of pork on my blog, Jamis.

Everybody needs to see that bill for what it is.  =|
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Ryan in Maine

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2009, 12:56:08 AM »
Where can I read the full details of the stimulus proposal? Every time I search for it I only find snippets.  =|

Perd Hapley

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2009, 01:06:46 AM »
How many hours do you have?
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Ryan in Maine

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2009, 01:18:13 AM »
I'm only working 10 hours next week. I've got lots of time to read up.  :lol:

I'll probably search pages for money amounts and go on down through, though.

RaspberrySurprise

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2009, 09:41:39 AM »
Where can I read the full details of the stimulus proposal? Every time I search for it I only find snippets.  =|

http://readthestimulus.org/
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Manedwolf

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #57 on: February 05, 2009, 09:52:02 AM »
Someone, I forget who, just publicly pointed out that there's more money for the National Endowment for the Arts than for small business in the bill. Yeah, that stimulates...

Democrats. They're like food addicts who can't be let in the kitchen, or they'll just start gorging out of the fridge that someone else paid for all the food in. Can't help themselves.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #58 on: February 05, 2009, 11:29:17 PM »
Can we all agree to stop calling this a "stimulus" bill?

Ryan in Maine

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #59 on: February 05, 2009, 11:57:37 PM »
*Clicks link*

Great, Scott!  :O

Perd Hapley

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2009, 01:10:55 AM »
Can we all agree to stop calling this a "stimulus" bill?

We could call it a porkulus bill.  Scroll down for mildly amusing image. 

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_013009/content/01125113.guest.html
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2009, 01:47:33 AM »
The bill is slated to give Milwaukee $88 million for the school system, ostensibly for school construction. That makes no sense because enrollment is down, the school system has a surplus of buildings, and is trying to sell school buildings.

My guess is that the money would go to one of Governor Doyle's biggest campaign backers, the teachers' union.

This porkulus bill has to be stopped cold.

Manedwolf

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2009, 12:47:25 PM »
Obama's arrogance is showing. Is this going to piss people off soon?

Quote
Obama bemoans: Everyone's an economist     
Feb 6 01:22 PM US/Eastern
WASHINGTON (AP) - President Barack Obama says in Washington these days, everyone's an economist—or thinks they are.

Obama introduced a team of outside economic advisers Friday at a White House ceremony in which he also renewed his demand that Congress act quickly on his economic recovery package.

As the country struggles with the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, Obama said there has been no shortage of advice on how to solve the nation's woes.

"You've got some economists and some folks who think they're economists. By the way, these days everybody thinks they're economists," he joked.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D96675KG0&show_article=1

Monkeyleg

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2009, 01:59:15 PM »
Quote
By the way, these days everybody thinks they're economists," he joked.

Seems to me the worst bunch of faux economists are those in his administration who think that spending money on government will boost the economy, and that repeating FDR is good, while repeating JFK and Reagan is bad.

Scout26

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2009, 10:57:31 AM »
Quote
This Act may be cited as the ‘‘American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009’’.
\

Sounds like something I read in an Ayn Rand book.......
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longeyes

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2009, 11:23:57 AM »
Quote
Obama's arrogance is showing. Is this going to piss people off soon?

Quote
Obama bemoans: Everyone's an economist     
Feb 6 01:22 PM US/Eastern
WASHINGTON (AP) - President Barack Obama says in Washington these days, everyone's an economist—or thinks they are.

Obama introduced a team of outside economic advisers Friday at a White House ceremony in which he also renewed his demand that Congress act quickly on his economic recovery package.

As the country struggles with the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, Obama said there has been no shortage of advice on how to solve the nation's woes.

"You've got some economists and some folks who think they're economists. By the way, these days everybody thinks they're economists," he joked.

Well, Mr Obama should know--if anyone does.  He has no interest in economics and less knowledge of it.  He yammers about economics, but this bill is a hundred per cent comprised of political agenda, built on a desire to perpetuate Democratic hegemony and advance socialism in America.

Will he piss people off? 

Yes, the same minority of the nation that has retained both common sense and a healthy measure of defiance.  What we do with those remains to be seen.

I think the sooner we realize we need to shore up what remains of our legacy the better off we will be.
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dm1333

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2009, 07:22:19 PM »
One that I can say will generate jobs is the 88 million to design a new polar icebreaker.  Carl Levin of Michigan also wants money to build another ice breaker for the Great Lakes and to build a new lock in Sault Ste. Marie, MI.  This will keep at least one ship builder busy, allow an increase in shipping between Lake Superior and the other lakes and give a bit of a safety factor.  The existing locks are getting old.  From what I have seen nearly 7% of our GNP passes through the Sault locks.

Gewehr98

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2009, 09:40:02 PM »
Not to play devil's advocate, but that $88 million to design a polar icebreaker...

How many jobs does that generate compared to the same $88 million injected into a different employment infrastructure?
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2009, 11:05:39 PM »
One that I can say will generate jobs is the 88 million to design a new polar icebreaker.  Carl Levin of Michigan also wants money to build another ice breaker for the Great Lakes and to build a new lock in Sault Ste. Marie, MI.  This will keep at least one ship builder busy, allow an increase in shipping between Lake Superior and the other lakes and give a bit of a safety factor.  The existing locks are getting old.  From what I have seen nearly 7% of our GNP passes through the Sault locks.
Stop and ask yourself what it costs to take that $88 million away from the economy and spend it on new locks and ice breakers.  I can virtually guarantee you that there'll be more economic activity, and more effective use of the money, if it's left in the hands of its rightful owners instead of being taxed away and wasted on pork projects for the state of Michigan.

dm1333

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2009, 09:38:59 AM »
Gewehr98,

Feel free to play devils advocate on the ice breaker design because it SHOULDN'T cost that much.  I just read on CNN that $122 million for Coast Guard cutters/ice breakers was completely cut.  I think the 88 mil was for design/construction but I'm not a mind reader.  That sucks though because that money would have kept a couple of shipyards busy for years building these ships. And it would help replace some of the World War II cutters that we are still using.

Headless Thompson Gunner,

Money for new locks and ice breakers for the Great Lakes would allow more shipping traffic on the lower 4 lakes and year round traffic for the first time ever on Lake Superior.  More shipping of goods like taconite means more money in the economy.  The Army Corps has had approval to build a new lock for years but has never been funded for it.  This isn't pork, unlike money for the NEA, this would have a real effect on our economy.  Even Carl Levin gets it right sometimes. =D

edit: without reading the whole stimulus I couldn't tell you how many cutters the money was for it shouldn't have been for one cutter.  Whether it was 88 or 122 million either figure is crazy for just one and except for a new polar breaker design the CG doesn't need any more design work, we need money to start cutting steel for ship.  We have several projects going to replace patrol boats, medium and larger cutters.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 09:42:45 AM by dm1333 »

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2009, 11:34:23 AM »

Headless Thompson Gunner,

Money for new locks and ice breakers for the Great Lakes would allow more shipping traffic on the lower 4 lakes and year round traffic for the first time ever on Lake Superior.  More shipping of goods like taconite means more money in the economy.  The Army Corps has had approval to build a new lock for years but has never been funded for it.  This isn't pork, unlike money for the NEA, this would have a real effect on our economy.  Even Carl Levin gets it right sometimes. =D

I don't doubt that it will have some economic benefit.  I'm questioning whether it will have the maximum economic benefit that can be achieved from the money spent.

There's an old economic fallacy that deals with this sort of question.  Resources are finite.  When you use them for a pork project like locks and ice breakers, you are necessarily taking those resources away from somewhere else. 

It's tempting to look at the results of some government pork program and say "See? This was a good use of resources, look at the shiny new locks and ice breakers we have because of it."  But that's fallacious.  To truly understand the situation you must also look at what you had to give up to get those locks and ice breakers.

The steel in those ice breakers could have been used to build a new factory, or a whole bunch of cars for people to drive to work, or a new skyscraper for office workers to use. 

The concrete and manpower used to build new locks could have been used to build new roads or bridges or schools. 

That $88 billion could have been used to recapitalize a bank,  allowing them to make investment loans to worthy business all over the country.

Which of these is the best alternative?  Hint: the best alternative is rarely the one that had to be forced on people by politicians.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 11:42:28 AM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

makattak

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2009, 11:40:36 AM »
I don't doubt that it will have some economic benefit.  I'm questioning whether it will have the maximum economic benefit that can be achieved from the money spent.

There's an old economic fallacy that deals with this sort of question.  Resources are finite.  When you use them for a pork project like locks and ice breakers, you are necessarily taking resources away from somewhere else. 


Broken Window Fallacy

Edit: Also, if you haven't read the book this is excerpted from, please do, it's excellent.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2009, 11:43:16 AM »
Ooo!  I didn't know it had a name.

Cool.

dm1333

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2009, 12:48:52 PM »
Quote
To truly understand the situation you must also look at what you had to give up to get those locks and ice breakers.

Got it.  But when one of the old and getting older locks breaks down think of all the iron ore that is not being shipped and the ripple effect that has on the rest of the economy.  Without functioning locks there is no iron ore being shipped, which means no steel coming from steel mills and heavy industry gets crippled.  But we should stop now because we could argue past each other all day long.  I felt sick looking at the crap in the original stimulus bill and have no idea how Obama could try to tell us there was no pork in the bill.  I think we really need to add a puking emoticon here.

makattak

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Re: Why they didn't sign the Stimulus (Pork) Package. Nancy Pelosi, nota bene!
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2009, 01:36:29 PM »
Got it.  But when one of the old and getting older locks breaks down think of all the iron ore that is not being shipped and the ripple effect that has on the rest of the economy.  Without functioning locks there is no iron ore being shipped, which means no steel coming from steel mills and heavy industry gets crippled.  But we should stop now because we could argue past each other all day long.  I felt sick looking at the crap in the original stimulus bill and have no idea how Obama could try to tell us there was no pork in the bill.  I think we really need to add a puking emoticon here.

Ahhhh you missed his clever semantics, then.

As I listened to his press release conference, Obama didn't say there was no pork, he said there were no "earmarks" in the bill. Earmarks refers to money given to states or agencies without a specific purpose in mind.

All of the spending in this bill are for specific projects or programs. Thus, they aren't "earmarks".

I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought