Author Topic: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks  (Read 19326 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2009, 10:43:23 PM »
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I am all about the boot-camp, hard labor for miscreants, adult or juvenile.  Keep them occupied, work their asses off, and leave them too tired to make much mischief.

Isn't that essentially the philosophy of a Russian labor camp? [Yes, they still exist].
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Balog

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2009, 11:56:53 PM »
Isn't that essentially the philosophy of a Russian labor camp? [Yes, they still exist].

What alternative do you propose? If someone is convicted of a crime; a real crime that deserves punishment. What do you feel is a good way to deal with criminals? Forced labour to make restitution to their victims seems an appropriate sentence to me. Of course for minor property crimes and such a thorough public whipping and some time in the stocks would be good. Pain and humiliation; nature's best teachers.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2009, 11:59:49 PM »
Speaking of prison labor, and public officials -

Recently heard from an Illinois resident, who called in to a radio talk show: 
Illinois, the Land Where Our Governors Make Our License Plates.   :laugh:
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 12:48:32 AM by Mr. Tactical pants »
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2009, 12:18:24 AM »
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What alternative do you propose? If someone is convicted of a crime; a real crime that deserves punishment. What do you feel is a good way to deal with criminals? Forced labour to make restitution to their victims seems an appropriate sentence to me. Of course for minor property crimes and such a thorough public whipping and some time in the stocks would be good. Pain and humiliation; nature's best teachers.

For adults? Or for minors?

It is my view that an adult person who commits a serious crime against another person needs to be put in prison. Not for two or three years, but a real sentence. Start with something like ten years for burglary and get on with it from there. Anybody who commits multiple serious crimes needs to be too old to re-offend by the time he crawls out into the light.

The important thing is that we cannot reliably rehabilitate anybody with any system, so I think it's important they be isolated from us normal people for the duration of their sentence. We don't yet know how to make sure Johnny Criminal doesn't re-offend when he's out after his burglary sentence is up, but he's sure not to be breaking into people's homes for the duration.

If the liberals want to try some rehabilitation crap on them, they're free to do this, but, with rare exemption, it shouldn't lead to them coming out of prison.

For minors, the whole idea that they are minors implies they're not fully responsible for their acts. So there should be lighter sentences and systems that make it easier to return them into society as much as possible. There are a variety of programs that have far lower recidivism rates than boot camps and are much less likely to lead to psychological damage or suicide.
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roo_ster

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2009, 12:31:36 AM »
Isn't that essentially the philosophy of a Russian labor camp? [Yes, they still exist].

Maybe so. 

And an armed civilian who kills an intruder commits homicide as does a premeditated murderer.

When the USA starts tossing political dissidents into those labor camps, there might be a point to make with such a comment.

Until then, I have no problem making convicts labor to exhaustion not only for punitive purposes, but to reduce the likelihood of them being a danger to guards or fellow prisoners (who deserve a relatively secure environment safe from rape, assault, murder, etc.).
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Antibubba

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2009, 01:28:59 AM »
While the penal code might not allow it, making them serve the amount of time each "convicted" juvenile got from them does seem fair.
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Balog

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2009, 01:35:05 AM »
For minors, the whole idea that they are minors implies they're not fully responsible for their acts. So there should be lighter sentences and systems that make it easier to return them into society as much as possible. There are a variety of programs that have far lower recidivism rates than boot camps and are much less likely to lead to psychological damage or suicide.


Source?
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2009, 02:51:31 AM »
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When the USA starts tossing political dissidents into those labor camps, there might be a point to make with such a comment.

No, that is not what I meant, obviously. Russia maintains these camps today, mostly for regular criminals, where they attempt to do the rehabilitation-through-work thing to them.

Quote
Source?

Here's one.

I know it's a Wikipedia article but it's packed with references to research articles in the professional journals.
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Balog

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2009, 03:02:29 AM »
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Davis, Ray and Sayles (1995) studied the effects adventure therapy on 266 high risk youth in rural areas. They reported lasting improvement in behavior over a six-month period.

Fail.

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Berman & Davis-Berman (1995) compared the reduction in recidivism rates with traditional programs and programs with adventure therapy. They reported that programs using adventure therapy have lower recidivism.

Isn't a "boot camp" style program "non-traditional" as well?

Your cite fails to provide support for your argument.
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I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2009, 03:10:14 AM »
Boot camps are considered 'traditional', actually, in the sense that they use hard work and the introduction of harsh authority to 'fix' children, whereas these new 'adventure' and 'outdoor' therapy programs do this to a lesser degree.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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KD5NRH

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2009, 05:58:35 AM »
Here's one.

Quote
These include cooperative games, problem solving initiatives, trust building activities,high adventure (rock climbing/rappelling, ropes courses, peak ascents); and wilderness expeditions (backpacking, canoing, dog sledding, sailing, etc.)

Uh...I'd have seen this as a good reason to be a juvenile delinquent.

Well, okay, I'd have seen it as a reason to get caught doing the stuff I did anyway.


cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2009, 07:15:13 AM »
These are advertised as similar, and very often young people get sent there on court orders as an alternative to juvenile prisons.


wrong. you make it across the water i can take you to a boot camp. better than a white paper for fact finding
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2009, 07:21:27 AM »
How is it wrong? Are you arguing that this does not occur?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2009, 07:34:42 AM »
no i'm offering you a chance to actually go to a boot camp and see what they are like. you can talk to the guys see what they think and why they chose to be there as opposed to a regular prison. there is more demand than beds at the one near me. you might find reallity doesn't make it to the white paper
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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KD5NRH

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2009, 08:15:18 AM »
no i'm offering you a chance to actually go to a boot camp and see what they are like

Can you get me into one of those adventure therapy sessions?  I don't care why the guys are there, I just want to do some rock climbing and rappelling on the state's dime.


cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2009, 09:06:43 AM »
many of those adventure thrapy places are paid for by mommy or daddy.   your folks wanna cut a check?  i know some churches that sponsor kids to various programs as well. they often pool money to send a kid. their idea is you save kids one at a time.  nice folks decent plans and they work sometimes. sometimes on the kids you'd never expect it of. i often say some of the most gratifying moment in that kinda work are when you are wrong. makes the kids laugh when you say how glad you are to have been wrong about them.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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agricola

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2009, 10:01:04 AM »
no i'm offering you a chance to actually go to a boot camp and see what they are like. you can talk to the guys see what they think and why they chose to be there as opposed to a regular prison. there is more demand than beds at the one near me. you might find reallity doesn't make it to the white paper

Thats not the issue here though. 

The issues are - as I see them - twofold:

Firstly that a private company and two judges colluded to sentence youths to the camps run by the private company.  This is, as many have said already, utterly outrageous and it must inevitably cast severe doubt on each and every decision made by those judges.

Secondly, those judges and the company did this in order to get more money from the state, which of course means you. So not only do they imprison individuals for profit but they also leech cash from the public purse.

Seven years is nowhere near enough.  Everyone involved with this should get life, without parole.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2009, 04:21:08 PM »
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no i'm offering you a chance to actually go to a boot camp and see what they are like

You will find going to such a place is not the same as collating statistics from multiple ones. Which what people with white papers do.


Reality is not about a single anecdotal experience. It is about how things happen in dozens of places.
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Firethorn

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2009, 04:45:43 PM »
many of those adventure thrapy places are paid for by mommy or daddy.   your folks wanna cut a check?

this reminds me of what I think the most appropriate punishment for the boot camp runners would be.  Besides tossing the briber in prison right along with the judges, make the company refund EVERY CENT anybody paid them to hold kids convicted by the judges.

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« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2009, 10:30:28 PM »
.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 01:11:27 PM by Don't care »

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2009, 10:30:58 PM »
sounds like paying that to the kids would be a start.  they could use it to hire the meanest land sharks.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2009, 10:33:44 PM »
You will find going to such a place is not the same as collating statistics from multiple ones. Which what people with white papers do.


Reality is not about a single anecdotal experience. It is about how things happen in dozens of places.


funny i was counting on reality being different than someone counting  statistics compiled by a variety of folks with their own agendas.

single anecdotal experience? i can offer you a chance to gather raw stats.  but thats against the rules right?  you do speak ebonics right?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2009, 10:36:18 PM »
Is this before or after you take me on a cruise of the 'bad parts' of D.C. after dark? (Remember, that $100 bet is still standing). =D

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2009, 10:41:46 PM »
you could use the tour to brush up on ebonics. or go after bootcamp to visit where these guys grew up
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Two Luzerne County, PA judges admit taking kickbacks
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2009, 11:00:32 PM »
you could use the tour to brush up on ebonics. or go after bootcamp to visit where these guys grew up

I'm not quite certain what you plan to prove with the bootcamp tour. I quite readily believe some of these institutions do not have explicit and blatant abuse in them. However, the problem of abuse by the people of in charge of various boot camps/tough love institutions/etc. is something that occurs and can't be ignored. Moreover, I believe that there are far better ways to do this, some of which I have referred to already. How will visiting a boot  camp (something I'm happy to take you up on) going to prove me wrong?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner