Author Topic: Continental 3407 down  (Read 6055 times)

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Continental 3407 down
« on: February 13, 2009, 01:50:56 AM »
49 dead.  44 passenger, 4 crew, one person on the ground.  Was a Dash-8.
http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/577959.html




Balog

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2009, 01:55:47 AM »
Quote
A nurse at Erie County Medical Center said the hospital's second shift had been told to stay late to treat survivors but was sent home before midnight.

"There were no souls to bring in and treat," she said.

Terrible.  =(
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2009, 01:59:53 AM »
Edited ATC audio.  Not much contact with 3407.
http://saga.silenceisdefeat.com/~ds/3407.mp3

KD5NRH

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2009, 02:20:43 AM »
Oddly enough:
http://www.flightstats.com/go/FlightStatus/flightStatusByFlightExtendedDetails.do?id=152021760&airlineCode=9L&flightNumber=3407

Quote
Route:        From (EWR) Newark, NJ, US to (BUF) Buffalo, NY, US    
Duration:        1h 38m    
Equipment:        De Havilland DHC-8-400 Dash 8/8Q (Scheduled)     
On-time Rating:         0.6 of 5 What's this?    
Codeshares:        This flight is marketed as a codeshare flight by the following carrier(s):
    (CO) Continental Airlines 3407

Arrival Status Details

Airport:        (BUF) Buffalo Niagara International Airport
         Buffalo, NY, US
Scheduled:        8:48 PM - Fri Feb 13, 2009
Estimated:        8:37 PM - Fri Feb 13, 2009 (runway)
Local Time:       2:13 AM - Fri Feb 13, 2009
       Arrival Time Detail     Scheduled   Actual
Published   8:48 PM    
Gate   8:48 PM    
Runway   8:37 PM    8:37 PM *

* Estimated arrival time

Time to revise that estimate, maybe?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 05:36:19 AM by KD5NRH »

digitalandanalog

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2009, 03:34:50 AM »
Hate to sound like an ass...

After all that HooRah about that wonderful splash landing in the Hudson recently it was just natural that NY had to get a little wake up call about airplanes...

They are a dangerous mode of transportation in that the failure of the plane (or the people who are responsible for it) will cause many deaths all at once.

That isn't to say that trains and buses are great in crashes, but a flying object laden with jet fuel hitting the ground at very high speeds is going to be death sentence for nearly all on board.

Still, I feel for their families.

geronimotwo

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2009, 06:57:14 AM »
two other pilots were reporting icing conditions coming into the same area after this crash.
make the world idiot proof.....and you will have a world full of idiots. -g2

Jamisjockey

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2009, 07:40:50 AM »
two other pilots were reporting icing conditions coming into the same area after this crash.

Most people don't even know about icing and what it can do.  Lots of variables but the witness description of it just plunging to earth.....yeah icing sounds like a very possible culprit.
JD

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mfree

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2009, 08:21:30 AM »
Jamis - yeah. I was speculating myself this morning when I heard it on the news, a plane on approach suddenly going through a asymmetrical stall from ice on one wing isn't going to be long for the sky.

geronimotwo

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2009, 08:21:54 AM »
Most people don't even know about icing and what it can do.  Lots of variables but the witness description of it just plunging to earth.....yeah icing sounds like a very possible culprit.

maybe not enough grey hairs on this captains head?
make the world idiot proof.....and you will have a world full of idiots. -g2

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2009, 08:24:53 AM »
maybe not enough grey hairs on this captains head?

In a case of sudden ice buildup, especially if icing hasn't been reported or ATC didn't broadcast the reports....any pilot might get surprised by a buildup of ice.  Then you factor in that it was dark, so the pilots might not have seen any buildup.  Also I think most modern aircraft rated to fly in ice have monitoring equipment that warns of a buildup.  If that equipment didn't detect the buildup....
JD

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Balog

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2009, 08:55:38 AM »
In a case of sudden ice buildup, especially if icing hasn't been reported or ATC didn't broadcast the reports....any pilot might get surprised by a buildup of ice.  Then you factor in that it was dark, so the pilots might not have seen any buildup.  Also I think most modern aircraft rated to fly in ice have monitoring equipment that warns of a buildup.  If that equipment didn't detect the buildup....

Do most aircraft have built in de-icers that can be used while flying?
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Don't care

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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2009, 09:03:03 AM »
.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 12:17:28 PM by Don't care »

geronimotwo

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2009, 09:12:19 AM »
Do most aircraft have built in de-icers that can be used while flying?

the standard used to be carb intake heaters, and an electrical heating element on the leading edge of the wings and prop blades.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2009, 10:04:54 AM »
the standard used to be carb intake heaters, and an electrical heating element on the leading edge of the wings and prop blades.

Still is. A Dash-8 is a turboprop, but the rest ought to apply. I don't know if they have nozzles or not, but I'm pretty sure they have wing leading edge heat.

Doesn't help if you get icing on the control surfaces, though, or if it builds up so fast that the wing stops acting like a wing. You're going to stop flying.

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2009, 10:10:54 AM »
Dash 8s have electrically heated props and de-ice boots on the wings as anti-icing measures. The engine inlet probably has a boot, too.

Generally, the deicing/anti-icing equipment is turned on when in icing conditions. Icing conditionis defined as  an air temperature of 10C or less and visible moisture such as rain, sleet, snow, or clouds.

The Q400 is the latest and greatest model of the DHC-8 line, a.k.a. the Dash 8. It may have automated deicing eqjipment, I don't know.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2009, 10:24:55 AM »
Bombardier Q400 , technically not a Dash 8, but as Fly said its just a new model of a Dash 8.

http://www.q400.com/q400/en/home.jsp





Their website says nothin about the de-icing ability, but I'd imagine its got the standard equipment.  
Back in the day, the ATR series turboprops were determined to be death traps in icing conditions, what was that in the eighties?
ATR is a very simliar design to the Dash 8 series.......


Given the icing reports, the sudden plunge.....sounds like icing to me.  Maybe a failure by the crew to activate the equipment, an equipment failure, or they had no idea that they were in icing conditions.  Its also possible that the icing built up so fast that the equipment couldn't keep up.
Not telling ATC isn't a surprise....if they are fighting for control of a stalled aircraft they are going to try and save the airplane first. 
JD

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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2009, 10:44:08 AM »
Updated audio, this time including ATC warning another Colgan Q400 that he's about to fly right over a crashed company aircraft of the same type, and asking the pilot if he wants to continue the approach.
http://saga.silenceisdefeat.com/~ds/3407-final.mp3

Sounds like the second Colgan pilot had a hard time processing what he was hearing, understandably.

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2009, 11:38:19 AM »
Flying into Buffalo in the winter is a given there will be ice.  Another airline lost an ATR to ice going into Chicago some years back.  The ice buildup caused the airplane to stall and down it went.....Jets have anti-ice leading edges, heated, where most turboprops have di-icing boots that remove the ice as it builds up.  Sometimes, especially when flying with the auto pilot on, ice can build undetected and the auto pilot compensates for it then on approach the pilot takes over manually and the airplane is all out of kilter by the ice that can cause a loss of control.  I bet this may be a contributing factor......chris3

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2009, 02:17:38 PM »
Can someone give me a good explanation of icing?  I'm familiar with the idea, but not with the details. 
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2009, 02:31:42 PM »
Can someone give me a good explanation of icing?  I'm familiar with the idea, but not with the details. 

As the airframe moves through the air, it accumulates ice on it.  Certain conditions have to be met to cause icing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icing_conditions

Quote
Definition of Icing Conditions

Icing conditions exist when the air contains droplets of supercooled liquid water; icing conditions are characterized quantitatively by the average droplet size, the Liquid Water Content and the air temperature. These parameters affect the extent and speed with which ice will form on an aircraft. Aircraft which are certified for flight into known icing condition use the definitions of [1] to define icing conditions. So-called SLD, or Supercooled Large Droplet, conditions are those which exceed that specification and represent a particular hazard to aircraft.

Qualitatively, pilot reports indicate icing conditions in terms of their effect upon the aircraft, and will be dependent upon the capabilities of the aircraft. Different aircraft may report the same quantitative conditions as different levels of icing as a result.
JD

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nking

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2009, 02:46:34 PM »

They are a dangerous mode of transportation in that the failure of the plane (or the people who are responsible for it) will cause many deaths all at once.

That isn't to say that trains and buses are great in crashes, but a flying object laden with jet fuel hitting the ground at very high speeds is going to be death sentence for nearly all on board.

Still, I feel for their families.

Statistically, air transportation is the safest mode of transportation there is.

I am a pilot. Larger commercial airliners have a system where hot bleed air is pumped into the wings via a system of pipes and coils. The Q400 uses pneumatic de-icing boots, which are not as effective as the bleed air system and only remove ice near the leading edge of the wing. In fact, if de-icing boots are cycled too soon, the ice may only be pushed outward away from the boot, rendering the boots ineffective.

The horizontal stabilizer provides a downforce, which keeps the nose of the aircraft up. Moving the elevator changes this downforce (via altering the angle of attack) and allows pitch to be controlled. If the horizontal stabilizer stalls (possibly because of icing) the aircraft will go into an uncontrollable dive, from which recovery can not be completed at the low altitude of an approach.  This is called a tail stall.

Icing not only adds weight, but reduces the aerodynamic effectiveness of the airfoil. In fact, the added weight of ice is insignificant when compared to the aerodynamic havoc it causes. As power is added to compensate for the additional drag and the nose is lifted to maintain altitude, the angle of attack is increased, allowing the underside of the wings and fuselage to accumulate additional ice. In some circumstances, a light coating is all that is needed to induce control issues.

I've had some pretty nasty icing in a Beechcraft 1900D.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 02:55:54 PM by nking »

Gewehr98

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2009, 02:48:25 PM »
Physics, I'll add to Jamis' description:

There are several problems that ice adds to the whole struggle of gravity vs. lift present in fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft.

It changes the shape of the aerodynamic surfaces of the wing and tail, reducing available lift.

It accumulates on propellers, reducing thrust and also flinging itself loose at high velocity.

It ices up carburetor intakes on piston-engined aircraft, causing loss of power at inopportune moments.

It can find its way into control surface pivot points, causing stiffening or even total loss of movement, with dire results.

It can freeze up pitot and static ports, causing instrumentation malfunctions and autopilot issues.

That's just a few...



 
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2009, 02:55:05 PM »
Hate to sound like an ass...

After all that HooRah about that wonderful splash landing in the Hudson recently it was just natural that NY had to get a little wake up call about airplanes...

They are a dangerous mode of transportation in that the failure of the plane (or the people who are responsible for it) will cause many deaths all at once.

That isn't to say that trains and buses are great in crashes, but a flying object laden with jet fuel hitting the ground at very high speeds is going to be death sentence for nearly all on board.

Still, I feel for their families.

Usually if you say "but"....that means you're sounding exactly how you mean to.

Me, I mean to sound like an ass:
What exactly is your experience or area of expertise in Aviation?

JD

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nking

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2009, 03:03:39 PM »
Physics, I'll add to Jamis' description:

There are several problems that ice adds to the whole struggle of gravity vs. lift present in fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft.

It changes the shape of the aerodynamic surfaces of the wing and tail, reducing available lift.

It accumulates on propellers, reducing thrust and also flinging itself loose at high velocity.

It ices up carburetor intakes on piston-engined aircraft, causing loss of power at inopportune moments.

It can find its way into control surface pivot points, causing stiffening or even total loss of movement, with dire results.

It can freeze up pitot and static ports, causing instrumentation malfunctions and autopilot issues.

That's just a few...



 

That reminds me. I had a charter flight some time ago in a small piston twin aircraft. We had a little icing and the passengers were getting a little nervous despite my confidence. Without warning them (what was I thinking?) , I flipped the prop ice switch. Moments later the passengers were startled at a couple of bangs against the fuselage. It was the ice slinging off the props. :)

Jamisjockey

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Re: Continental 3407 down
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2009, 03:05:02 PM »
That reminds me. I had a charter flight some time ago in a small piston twin aircraft. We had a little icing and the passengers were getting a little nervous despite my confidence. Without warning them (what was I thinking?) , I flipped the prop ice switch. Moments later the passengers were startled at a couple of bangs against the fuselage. It was the ice slinging off the props. :)

When I was an ATC in Salt Lake we averaged about 3 private aircraft every winter augering in thanks to icing or CFIT during inclement winter weather conditions.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”