Author Topic: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile  (Read 4363 times)

Manedwolf

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Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« on: February 17, 2009, 03:37:10 PM »
Of all the states, that Mass would consider this surprises me the least. I really do think it's like living in West Germany and seeing East Germany next door, half the time. It's strange.

Quote
Massachusetts may consider a mileage charge

By Glen Johnson, Associated Press Writer  |  February 17, 2009

BOSTON --A tentative plan to overhaul Massachusetts' transportation system by using GPS chips to charge motorists a quarter-cent for every mile behind the wheel has angered some drivers.

"It's outrageous, it's kind of Orwellian, Big Brotherish," said Sen. Scott Brown, R-Wrentham, who drafted legislation last week to prohibit the practice. "You'd need a whole new department of cronies just to keep track of it."

But a "Vehicle Miles Traveled" program like the one the governor may unveil this week has already been tested -- with positive results -- in Oregon.

Governors in Idaho and Rhode Island, as well as the federal government, also are talking about such programs. And in North Carolina, a panel suggested in December the state start charging motorists a quarter-cent for every mile as a substitute for the gas tax.

"The Big Brother issue was identified during the first meeting of the task force that developed our program," said Jim Whitty, who oversees innovation projects for the Oregon Department of Transportation. "Everything we did from that point forward, even though we used electronics, was to eliminate those concerns."

A draft overhaul transport plan prepared for Gov. Deval Patrick says implementing a Vehicle Miles Traveled system to replace the gas tax makes sense. "A user-based system, collected electronically, is a fair way to pay for our transportation needs in the future," it says.

Patrick, who had yet to settle on any of the ideas contained in the draft, told reporters last week, "I like any idea that is faster, cheaper, simpler."

The idea behind the program is simple: As cars become more fuel efficient or powered by electricity, gas tax revenues decline. Yet the cost of building and maintaining roads and bridges is increasing. A state could cover that gap by charging drivers precisely for the mileage their vehicles put on public roads.

"There needs to be a new way of thinking about, `How do we pay for all of this?'" said Richard Dimino, president of A Better City, a business-friendly group that considers transportation issues.

"One of the ways is thinking about the automobile like a utility: When we turn on our automobile and use it, we would be charged like we do when we turn on the lights and we start using electricity." (That's funny, I thought people owned their cars?)

In Oregon, the state paid volunteers who let the transportation department install GPS receivers in 300 vehicles. The device did not transmit a signal -- which would allow real-time tracking of a driver's movements -- but instead passively received satellite pings telling the receiver where it was in terms of latitude and longitude coordinates.

The state used those coordinates to determine when the vehicle was driving both within Oregon and outside the state. And it measured the respective distances through a connection with the vehicle's odometer.

When a driver pulled into a predetermined service station, the pump linked electronically with the receiver, downloaded the number of miles driven in Oregon and then charged the driver a fee based on the distance. The gas tax they would have paid was reduced by the amount of the user fee. Drivers continued to be charged gas tax for miles driven outside Oregon.

Under such systems, one of which is already used in London, drivers are charged more for entering a crowded area during rush hour than off-peak periods.

"What the mileage charge does, if it's structured properly, is simply charge for the basic responsibility of people to pay for the amount of wear they put on the state's roads," said Whitty, whose state is still considering the mechanics of broadening the program.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/02/17/massachusetts_may_consider_a_mileage_charge_1234883470/

PTK

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2009, 03:45:53 PM »
And all the sudden, old cars not equipped with such tech become far more valuable, fake registration papers become common, etc.

Once again, MA is a cesspool.
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Werewolf

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2009, 03:47:53 PM »
Hmmmmm...  :|

Might not be a bad way to go...  =)

IF MA actually cancelled the gas tax.  :lol:

THAT'S A MIGHTY BIG IF.  :mad:

Somehow one just doesn't see MA cancelling any TAX.  :O
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Manedwolf

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2009, 03:48:16 PM »
And all the sudden, old cars not equipped with such tech become far more valuable, fake registration papers become common, etc.

Once again, MA is a cesspool.

Oh, they'd probably require a retrofit with a hefty FEE, of course. Another revenue stream.

No, they never cancel taxes. They add more.

Then if people stopped driving much because the charges were adding up, there would be a shortfall. A new tax to cover it.

It's a spiral of stupid.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2009, 04:05:02 PM »
I've been arguing FOR something like this for awhile.  Not necessarily GPS tracking of a vehicle, but at least vehicle registration based on the wear the vehicle causes to the public roads.

It's always struck me as absurdly unfair that
1) a 6000 pound 80's sedan costs $30 a year to register to drive,
2) a 3500 pound new Honda costs $400 a year to register to drive,
3) and a 8000 pound 4-year old pickup costs $200 a year to register to drive.

Assuming even weight per square inch of tire surface area, then the heavier the vehicle weight, the more wear the vehicle causes to the street.  That pickup causes the most damage to the street, the 80's sedan next, and the Honda considerably less.  Yet the Honda subsidizes road wear of the other two vehicles.

If registration were not a bastardized sin tax on buying a new car, you might have a few more people buying new cars and reducing the number of overweight clunker sedans on the road.

I drive a truck and I acknowledge that my truck causes more road wear than many other cars.  But it irks me to see some 70's landboat that weighs more than my car, cruising along and the guy only paid $30 to keep that thing on the road.  I'm okay with Priuses paying less vehicle registration fees than me.  It's fair.

And, likewise with mileage.  Pizza delivery guys put more wear on the road than I do.  They should pay for it accordingly.  I put more wear on the road than Granny Clementine, who only drives down the block to church once a week.  I should pay for it accordingly.

I do however, disagree heartily with goobermint tracking or more nefarious devices (ignition override, distributor coil interruptor, etc) installed in my car.  I will disable such devices immediately if they become mandatory, then populate the onboard computer with reasonably accurate data for legitimate tax purposes but no tracking/routing information.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2009, 04:09:35 PM »
And, likewise with mileage.  Pizza delivery guys put more wear on the road than I do.  They should pay for it accordingly. I should pay for it in the increased price of the pizza when the additional tax is passed on to consumers so the pizza place can still make a profit when the driver has to expense the tax to the business. I also don't mind waiting longer for a pizza because less drivers will be willing to drive their own vehicles for minimum wage and have to wait for taxes they pay to be given back to them by the pizza place in expense.

FTFY.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2009, 04:14:56 PM »
FTFY.

Yeah, wages and prices of low end service economy products and jobs would fluctuate in such a situation.

But, vehicle registration and gas tax fees for me would go down.

Would it even out, or come out better for me in the long run?

Probably not. :rolleyes:  But it would at least be accurate, truthful and representative.  Get some of the hidden taxes out of hiding and into the light of day for people to see and contemplate every day.  Taxes tend to go down when people are faced with them constantly.

I wish gas pumps posted Fed/state/local taxes right up in front of your face when you pumped.  Some used to have a little sticker for the fed tax, but nowadays they don't seem to have it anymore.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2009, 04:33:00 PM »
Oh, Patrick came out with another idea at the same time.

Quote
Gov. proposes Internet
sales tax
Bring in millions of tax revenue

Updated: Tuesday, 17 Feb 2009, 5:47 AM EST
Published : Tuesday, 17 Feb 2009, 12:16 AM EST

(WWLP) - In his struggle to find new revenue streams for the Bay State, Governor Deval Patrick has an idea that could bring-in millions of additional tax dollars.

Patrick is pushing lawmakers to expand the state's ability to collect sales tax on products sold over the internet.

Right now, only in-state internet retailers collect and remit sales taxes on purchases by Bay State residents.

The governor is calling for that to change by year's end so you pay the state's 5 percent no matter where you purchase your items.

Some people we spoke with think internet sales may decline as a result.

In addition to the convenience of online shopping, they think many people deliberately go on the web to save on the sales tax.

Mass is imploding.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2009, 05:23:37 PM »
Quote
In addition to the convenience of online shopping, they think many people deliberately go on the web to save on the sales tax.

100% true.

I deliberately avoid sales tax as well as fuel costs when I buy online, but I only buy online when the shipping costs merit that.  Usually about a $100-$150 price point and $8-$10 shipping.  I mostly do this with gun stuff, books, movies and martial arts gear.  Smaller purchases get done locally, which are also more often.

This will push the online retailers out of Mass... and if it echoes elsewhere in the US then they will move off-shore. 

I won't buy from Amazon if I have to pay tax and shipping.  Just won't happen.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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I reject your authoritah!

Jamisjockey

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2009, 06:14:11 PM »
Here in VA we have to get safety inspections.   All they'd have to do is submit your mileage on the form, and make you sign a sworn statement you didn't tamper with the odometer, just like when you sell a car.
JD

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Marnoot

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2009, 06:34:20 PM »
Here in VA we have to get safety inspections.   All they'd have to do is submit your mileage on the form, and make you sign a sworn statement you didn't tamper with the odometer, just like when you sell a car.


What about miles driven outside of the state? Though I'm sure they'd be plenty happy to tax those too.

zahc

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2009, 06:54:07 PM »
When I bought this laptop, I went and looked at it at MicroCenter, and then I ordered it on Amazon. Shipping was less than the $32 I would have paid in TX taxes.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2009, 07:42:45 PM »
What about miles driven outside of the state? Though I'm sure they'd be plenty happy to tax those too.

True.  Didn't think of that...I was just thinking about the insanity of installing GPS devices into every registered vehicle........I'm sure at taxpayer expense.......
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

BMacklem

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2009, 11:19:21 PM »
What about driving on your own property?
Does that get taxed as well?
Let's say for example, I was teaching someone how to drive in a parking lot, and put a lot of miles going in circles, and around lightposts.... does that get taxed as well?
I think this is a dumb idea, and is going to cost a HECK of a lot of money to try and get the infrastructure going, and not to mention the possibilities of fraud, and general errors that will inevitably happen when gadgets are added into the mixture.
This would get ugly fast.

Scout26

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2009, 11:59:48 PM »
Why do I see thsi coming to Illinois soon ??   Oh Yeah, we're out of money also to pour down rat holes, so it's gonna be time to stick it to the taxpayers once again...
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2009, 08:38:56 AM »
1) a 6000 pound 80's sedan costs $30 a year to register to drive,
2) a 3500 pound new Honda costs $400 a year to register to drive,
3) and a 8000 pound 4-year old pickup costs $200 a year to register to drive.



where does car registration work like that?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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HKUSP45

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2009, 09:56:35 AM »
CAS'sD

It works like that almost everywhere I've paid registration fees. They are usually based on the value of the car not on the damage the car is doing to thinfrastructure. So a 80's sedan will be the lowest value the 4 year old truck will come in second and the new Honda will be the most expensive car and therefore the most expensive to register. Even thought the sedan will do less damage than the pick up but an order of magnitude more than the Honda.

mtnbkr

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2009, 10:01:41 AM »
1) a 6000 pound 80's sedan costs $30 a year to register to drive,
2) a 3500 pound new Honda costs $400 a year to register to drive,
3) and a 8000 pound 4-year old pickup costs $200 a year to register to drive.
where does car registration work like that?

We call it the "personal property tax" in Virginia, or the "car tax".  I pay more in taxes for my 2003 Camry than my 1997 4Runner due to "book value", even though the 4Runner is heavier and harder on the roads.

Chris

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2009, 10:28:50 AM »
i pay about 10 bucks more a year for the ford 250 utility body registered  at  10k pounds than the honda crv 3k something
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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mtnbkr

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2009, 10:36:47 AM »
i pay about 10 bucks more a year for the ford 250 utility body registered  at  10k pounds than the honda crv 3k something

There might be extra taxes involved because the truck is a work truck and/or it's extra heavy.  Not being affected by either of those situations I am not up to speed on what Va would charge.  IIRC, the "car tax" discount only applies to personal vehicles. Therefore, a heavy or work-owned vehicle would be taxed higher.

IIRC, my 4Runner was something around $150/year including county sticker, while the Camry was around $200/year with sticker.

Chris

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2009, 10:43:20 AM »
i get it  you lump the pp into the registration  i can understand that. i treat it as the way va gets even for lower state income tax than md and dc so i don't think of it as part of the registration. was a shame when colonial beach started charging pp tax.  the used to have quite a few cars and boats registered there
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Jamisjockey

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2009, 10:44:10 AM »
We call it the "personal property tax" in Virginia, or the "car tax".  I pay more in taxes for my 2003 Camry than my 1997 4Runner due to "book value", even though the 4Runner is heavier and harder on the roads.

Chris

Sweet sex positive baby Xenu you don't want to even know what the property tax on the wife's ESV is.  I can't wait to get out of PWC......
JD

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ilbob

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2009, 10:53:25 AM »
It's always struck me as absurdly unfair that
1) a 6000 pound 80's sedan costs $30 a year to register to drive,
2) a 3500 pound new Honda costs $400 a year to register to drive,
3) and a 8000 pound 4-year old pickup costs $200 a year to register to drive.
Whats unfair about it? The 80s sedan has already been registered when it was new and paid the higher tax already. why should they have to pay it again?

besides, motor fuel taxes pay for most road costs and heavier cars tend to use more gas so they pay more taxes. can't get a whole lot fairer than that.

and really, there is not a whole lot of difference in road wear between vehicles of this type.
bob

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Jamisjockey

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2009, 10:54:29 AM »
Whats unfair about it? The 80s sedan has already been registered when it was new and paid the higher tax already. why should they have to pay it again?

besides, motor fuel taxes pay for most road costs and heavier cars tend to use more gas so they pay more taxes. can't get a whole lot fairer than that.

and really, there is not a whole lot of difference in road wear between vehicles of this type.

In this county the above type rates aren't a use tax, but a property tax.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Mass may do the GPS-based driver tracking and pay-per-mile
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2009, 11:00:32 AM »
you paid personal property on sugar momma yet? 
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I