Author Topic: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players  (Read 10717 times)

roo_ster

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2009, 12:33:08 PM »
Of course I'm a military mariner, and slightly paranoid.


you are not parnoid  mother nature is trying to kill you

So many folks do not understand that simple point.

"The ducks are never going to line up.  The ducks are trying to kill you."
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2009, 12:44:58 PM »
my worst fear is to push my luck like that and be the survivor  have to face the other families.  i've done my best to kill myself more than once only to have blind dumb luck save me.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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myrockfight

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2009, 01:04:53 PM »
Unfortunatly not a meaningful chance.

If at all possible, if your boat capsizes, tie yourself to it.  that way you won't get washed away.

The probability of them being dead exponentially increases every second. I know it isn't meaningful from a mathmatical or statistical perspective, but if I was the family, it would mean a hell of a lot more. At this late in the effort, I'm not holding my breath. Sixty-four degree water is friggin' cold if you ask me. Even if you are only in for an hour. But miracles happen. *shrugs

Jamisjockey

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2009, 01:43:18 PM »
There is a hypothermia survival chart here.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

myrockfight

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2009, 01:56:40 PM »
There is a hypothermia survival chart here.


Yeah. I'd say it is over by those numbers. Hopefully they can at least recover the remains for the families. I'll bet Nick is just beside himself right now. He is going to have one hell of a case of survivor's guilt. I would think.

myrockfight

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2009, 09:58:43 PM »
I meant to drop by earlier, but they suspended the rescue efforts. The report I heard said there were 230 search hours (This has to be cumulative hours by individual vessels) and 23,000 square miles searched. Or was it 26,000?

Do you guys care to speculate on why the weren't found?

I was thinking, especially since they found the boat, that they somehow passed over the guys in their search. Since they have thermal imaging I was thinking they probably already passed away and weren't giving off body heat. Given how hard it is to spot someone visually during an aerial search when you only can see their head bobbing in the water assuming they still had life-jackets on.

Care to share any thoughts on the subject? I'm sure one of you guys knows more about it than I do.

Jamisjockey

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2009, 10:08:04 PM »
Considering all you see when someone is in the water is their head, awful hard to spot in pitching seas, rain, blowing wind......
I think considering the conditions, they probably drown pretty early on. 
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2009, 10:09:04 PM »
don't folks suffering from hypothermia sometimes do things like take off their coats/clothes?the cold addels them
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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myrockfight

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2009, 10:10:21 PM »
Considering all you see when someone is in the water is their head, awful hard to spot in pitching seas, rain, blowing wind......
I think considering the conditions, they probably drown pretty early on. 

Even with life-jackets?

don't folks suffering from hypothermia sometimes do things like take off their coats/clothes?the cold addels them

I was wondering that too. But I don't now if it applies.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2009, 10:12:15 PM »
stories like this are good reminders to fools like me. especially fools who take their kids with em.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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myrockfight

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2009, 10:50:25 PM »
stories like this are good reminders to fools like me. especially fools who take their kids with em.

I don't have kids. But I would definitely remove the fool title along with its accoutrements. I can't imagine that you would want to live with the consequences. Even if you could, I'm sure the wifey would make it impossible shortly thereafter.

I'm sure you already have though. This kind of stuff should make us all think. I know it does for me. Even just sailing on the Bay can turn into a nightmare given the right circumstances. And I have seen them. You go out and sail in a dinghy that is shorter than your car that will flip faster than a coin in 20-30 knot wind and your mind will be racing with how you are going to get your boat righted and your crew back on board. It isn't a matter of if, it is when.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 10:55:39 PM by myrockfight »

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2009, 10:52:23 PM »
if i hurt my kids like that i would get in touch with my japanese side right away. i've not got what it takes to live with that. i almost croaked when her pony rolled over on her. was thinking glue
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

myrockfight

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2009, 11:15:35 PM »
if i hurt my kids like that i would get in touch with my japanese side right away. i've not got what it takes to live with that. i almost croaked when her pony rolled over on her. was thinking glue

LOL. That animal appreciates your mercy.

It is amazing how resilient kids are though. It absolutely amazes me the crap I used to do - for fun. I would break something if I did it now.

grampster

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2009, 11:27:45 PM »
They dehidrate and then drink seawater.
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myrockfight

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2009, 11:44:56 PM »
They dehidrate and then drink seawater.

Well they don't have to. Then again. I haven't gone that long without water while swimming in a few billion-quadrillion gallons of salt-water. I'm sure it is tempting, but I would love to see numbers based on the number of people who have given the same situation.

I would like to think these guys would have more discipline than that. Maybe they would....maybe they wouldn't.

wmenorr67

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2009, 07:24:23 PM »
There is a report that Nick stated the two NFL players took their live jackets off and gave up.  The other guy thought he saw lights and was going to try to swim to safety.

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Leatherneck

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2009, 07:56:46 PM »
Quote
Do you guys care to speculate on why the weren't found?

They drowned. They shed their PFDs according to the survivor.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they were hypothermic and out of their minds.

Take this lesson, ladies and gents: the sea will kill you without remorse. Whether shallow or deep, the sea wants to take you back.

You wind up crab meat.

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Gewehr98

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2009, 07:58:22 PM »
That was a tiny little boat they were in, too.

Is something that small rated for open seas?
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Jamisjockey

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2009, 08:23:13 PM »
That was a tiny little boat they were in, too.

Is something that small rated for open seas?

Yup.  But not for the stuff they took it out in. 
Edgewater has a good reputation and can handle some pretty nasty stuff.  Being they were at anchor in rough seas, they probably took one over the bow or side.  Water filled the boat which shifted the center of gravity and over she went.
Its not uncommon to run a boat like that 20 or 30 miles out.  On a nice day with a good weather window. 
Hell it was only 2' shorter than my boat.  But I've never had mine out on a day that was forcast to turn into 8'+ seas.


JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Firethorn

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2009, 08:48:13 PM »
There's probably a reason for it, but I've seen a lot of capsized boats in that size range.  Would it be possible to build a survival shelter somewhere in the hull with some sort of air refresh valve on the bottom?  That way people don't end up trying to cling to the outside?

myrockfight

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2009, 09:06:06 PM »
Yup.  But not for the stuff they took it out in. 
Edgewater has a good reputation and can handle some pretty nasty stuff.  Being they were at anchor in rough seas, they probably took one over the bow or side.  Water filled the boat which shifted the center of gravity and over she went.
Its not uncommon to run a boat like that 20 or 30 miles out.  On a nice day with a good weather window. 
Hell it was only 2' shorter than my boat.  But I've never had mine out on a day that was forcast to turn into 8'+ seas.




I have had a 20' boat out to 28 miles here before. But it was a really nice day with no chance for a front at all. That is where they really screwed up. I've got a notion that the owner ( I can't remember which one) didn't take the Coast Guard Aux. Course or any other where they cover the limitations of your boat vs. how fast the weather can change. You don't often see 8ft. seas here on the Gulf side much. In fact, I'd say it is downright rare. But I wouldn't take that boat out in anything over 3ft. for the simple sake of comfortability.

A 21ft. boat is mostly for inland waters including the Intercoastal and the Bay. You can take it out on the ocean, but I would say 25 miles is pushing it on average. Of course, as everyone has said, you can pick your days/windows and go out further, but you are testing the limits of your knowledge of the weather/ocean and how they interact. The range of your seafaring should be directly correlated with your level knowledge/experience on the ocean. Period. Even if you have the "proper" equipment - if you don't have the knowledge to put it to use, you risk killing yourself and others.

This was a perfect example of how many guys go out and purchase a boat and have no clue how to use it safely. So many people I've seen that just buy the boat and expect it to be just like a car. It mostly costs them a lot of money in fiberglass repairs. But occasionally we have stories like this.

Hell, many people don't even know how to read channel markers, much less navigate the open ocean responsibly. I don't know that I would like to require people to take a course like the Coast Guard Auxiliary gives, but I think boat dealers should be much more proactive in offering/pushing boat buyers to take basic seamanship classes.

I believe everyone should be responsible for themselves and that the government should not have their fingers in everything, etc. But a big part of me also thinks that they should do more for on the educational aspect of proper seamanship/boating. The numbers don't really support it though. Last year, I think there were 69 deaths in Florida related to boating. Compare that to approximately 1.1 million vessels registered in the state. That should equate to an awful lot of hours on the water between accidents. Plus, most people who died drowned after falling overboard. Not from navigational errors, capsizing, etc.

It is just a shame when this stuff happens when it could have been avoided. What is that saying about accident avoidence? 90% can be?


Apparantly, there are unconfirmed rumors that the two NFL players gave up after two hours?! That doesn't make sense in the slightest. Maybe after a longer period of time, but not two hours. Here is a link to that story: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,504464,00.html

myrockfight

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2009, 09:35:52 PM »
Oh. I wanted to tell you guys that you can get an EPIRB for under $200. I've been wanting to get one for a while now as a personal item. I just haven't been doing crap that would require its use.

Here: http://www.tigergps.com/acrminib300ils.html?productid=acrminib300ils&channelid=FROOG

I'd forego a couple of trips or dinners out to buy one if I was going offshore. That is for sure.

KD5NRH

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2009, 04:38:01 AM »
Apparantly, there are unconfirmed rumors that the two NFL players gave up after two hours?! That doesn't make sense in the slightest. Maybe after a longer period of time, but not two hours. Here is a link to that story: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,504464,00.html

Float in cold water for a couple of hours, with little hope of getting out for several more hours, and no promise of ever getting out, then tell me that a quick drowning isn't even a remotely rational preference.


Jamisjockey

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2009, 08:12:34 AM »
There's probably a reason for it, but I've seen a lot of capsized boats in that size range.  Would it be possible to build a survival shelter somewhere in the hull with some sort of air refresh valve on the bottom?  That way people don't end up trying to cling to the outside?

I would think that pop-out handles on the bottom of the hull would be a better solution.  Being under a boat that might potentially sink seems like a bad idea to me. 
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Jamisjockey

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Re: 4 men missing off Florida, including 2 NFL players
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2009, 08:17:52 AM »


Hell, many people don't even know how to read channel markers, much less navigate the open ocean responsibly. I don't know that I would like to require people to take a course like the Coast Guard Auxiliary gives, but I think boat dealers should be much more proactive in offering/pushing boat buyers to take basic seamanship classes.

I think that insurance companies should be encouraged to require safety courses in all that we do.  Seems prudent.  I also think that the government should butt out of helmet and seatbelt laws.  But, if you don't wear one, I think the insurance company should be allowed to make you liable for your injuries. 

Quote

Apparantly, there are unconfirmed rumors that the two NFL players gave up after two hours?! That doesn't make sense in the slightest. Maybe after a longer period of time, but not two hours. Here is a link to that story: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,504464,00.html

Hypothermia and exhaustion.  Seems like they would have been fit enough to stave it off for longer.  Its hard to judge someone's reaction, as there are so many factors that can play into it.  The survivor is the only one telling the story, too.  His version might be skewed by his time in the water, too.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”