Cool new battery tech - a recharge cycle takes just seconds

[RocketMan]

Some scientists at MIT have taken a new look at conventional Li-Ion battery technology and found a way to phenomenally decrease recharge times.  Cell phone batteries that can recharge in seconds.  Electric vehicle batteries that can be recharged in about the same time it currently takes to fill a conventional car's gas tank.
If the technology proves feasible, this could finally bring electric cars into the realm of the truly practical vehicle.


Mail OnlineScientists develop mobile phone battery that can be charged in just 10 seconds

By David Derbyshire

A revolutionary mobile phone battery that recharges in 10 seconds instead of several hours has been created by scientists.
The new device charges 100 times as fast as a conventional battery and could also be used in phones, laptops, iPods and digital cameras within just two or three years, they say.

The same technology could even allow an electric car to be charged up in the same time that it takes to fill a conventional car with petrol - removing one of the biggest obstacles to green, clean motoring.

The quick-charge battery is the brainchild of engineers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

The MIT team say their invention uses materials already available to battery manufacturers and would be simple to mass produce.

The invention is based on conventional lithium ion rechargeable batteries found in most cameras, phones and portable computers.

The whole story is here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1161274/Scientists-develop-mobile-phone-battery-charged-just-10-seconds.html

[zahc]

On something as big as a car, physics puts dampers on how fast you can recharge with using practical wires and circuits. A 20Ah battery pack, to recharge in 1 minute, would require over a thousand amps.

[RocketMan]

I hadn't thought of that, Zahc.  And the math is simple.  I wonder why the whiz kids at MIT didn't mention it?

[taurusowner]

What says they didn't?  News articles never include everything.

[HankB]

Yeah, as I was reading the story the first thing I thought of was "How much current draw will you have if you're going to fully charge an electric car in a couple of minutes?"

Sometimes whiz kids screw up - I remember those at U of MN who evaluated some inventor's "super efficient" furnace and were amazed by the numbers - they measured the power input, the airflow, and the input and output air temperatures, and came up with a calculated efficiency over 100%. 

A student realized that they had measured input and output air temperatures in centigrade, whereas the theromodynamic equations used required temperatures be measured in degrees kelvin.

Red faces all around. 

[slugcatcher]

On something as big as a car, physics puts dampers on how fast you can recharge with using practical wires and circuits. A 20Ah battery pack, to recharge in 1 minute, would require over a thousand amps.

Agreed. Maybe they should perfect room temperature superconductors next.

[ilbob]

On something as big as a car, physics puts dampers on how fast you can recharge with using practical wires and circuits. A 20Ah battery pack, to recharge in 1 minute, would require over a thousand amps.

In very rough terms, for a battery powered car, 10 kw-hr of electricity is roughly equivalent to a gallon of gas in a gas powered car.

A typical small vehicle might have a 15 gallon gas tank so lets call that 150 kw-hr that has to potentially be recharged. Lets say it has some kind of on board electronics to do the charging so we can apply 240V single phase to it. It would have to charge at 625A for an hour to recharge.

That amount of current introduces some very serious safety and logistical concerns.

[AJ Dual]

In very rough terms, for a battery powered car, 10 kw-hr of electricity is roughly equivalent to a gallon of gas in a gas powered car.

A typical small vehicle might have a 15 gallon gas tank so lets call that 150 kw-hr that has to potentially be recharged. Lets say it has some kind of on board electronics to do the charging so we can apply 240V single phase to it. It would have to charge at 625A for an hour to recharge.

That amount of current introduces some very serious safety and logistical concerns.

I don't see the problem...

We get a post-fossil fuel economy and a healthy infusion of some much needed Darwin at the same time. 

[Nick1911]

Wonder if this is the same thing as ultracapacitors?  Sounds like they might have more capacity, though.

It'd be interesting to know how they dropped the internal resistance that much for charging.  It would also be interesting to see what a short circuit does to one of those buggers.  If it can take a charge that fast, it can likely dump it equally fast! 

[cslinger]

That amount of current introduces some very serious safety and logistical concerns.

I agree but just to play devil's advocate the fuel we use now has some pretty serious safety concerns, we have just used it long enough to know how to properly handle it and develop the correct pumping methods etc. 

I would assume high current would be much the same in this regard. 

Of course I am also of the mindset of where is all this "free magic electricity" going to come from?  :D

[Firethorn]

A typical small vehicle might have a 15 gallon gas tank so lets call that 150 kw-hr that has to potentially be recharged. Lets say it has some kind of on board electronics to do the charging so we can apply 240V single phase to it. It would have to charge at 625A for an hour to recharge.

I started with that, then realizing that anything you start looking at over 200 amps or so they either start going to three phase or upping the voltage - In any case, while 600-900V would cut down the size of the charging wires to something 'reasonable', you have to remember that we're STILL looking at 'trucker/aircraft jumper cables' type size.  And standard home wiring insulation is only good up to 600V(going by what's printed on the sheath), so insulation to prevent arcing is a big concern.

Then there's the whole issue of how much the power substation you'll need next to the filling station, and the high voltage lines to the substation...

Of course I am also of the mindset of where is all this "free magic electricity" going to come from?  :D

Wind turbines!  Solar Panels on the roof of the station!    Personally, I'd build a few GenIV reactors.

[AJ Dual]

  Personally, I'd build a few GenIV reactors.

Amen to that. Some pebble bed designs are "walk-away" safe. And there's others too. I can't even imagine where we'd be if fission technology had serious commercial competition for safety design and efficiency.

And also, you can make reactors with Thorium too. We've just been standardized on Uranium ever since WWII because the first full-blown nuclear reactor projects were going hand in hand with bomb projects, and the greater technical hurdle that while Thorium can fission, it can never reach critical mass. It was much harder to create a steady neutron source back then.

Now you could make a Thorium reactor with a neutron particle beam initiator, and if anything "breaks" it just shuts off and stops fissioning because it can't sustain a reaction without the seed neutrons.

What's even cooler than that, because of the unique nature of a Thorium reactor's fuel cycle and the intermediate isotopes it makes as it fissions, it can "burn" Uranium/Plutonium waste from the Uranium reactor economy, and the resulting waste is only "bad" for 500 years or so, as opposed to 10,000 years. And the Thorium cycle is useles in regards to bomb and proliferation concerns. We can "give" Thorium reactors to the third-world willy-nilly and not have to worry. And if they're incompetent or "break" the reactor, the reaction stops, instead of getting beyond their control.

[Balog]

I'd actually love to see widespread electric car usage, just so we can finally get the hippies to stfu and let us build moar nuke plants. If they happen to fry themselves charging the dang things that's a bonus. :D

[AZRedhawk44]

"Gas" stations could have one of those small neighborhood nuke plants that are all the rage for little Alaskan communities... Isn't it Honda or one of the Japanese giants that makes them?  Mitsubishi?

[AmbulanceDriver]

I don't see the problem...

We get a post-fossil fuel economy and a healthy infusion of some much needed Darwin at the same time. 

"Arrowspirit, I can't get the charging plug to fit into the jack on the car......."

"Did you try turning it around?"

"Of course I did, do you think I'm as stupid as those Republicans?"

"Well, just try pushing it harder!"

*BANG*

[Monkeyleg]

Technological hurdles aside, how long do you think it will be before congress mandates the that the automakers have the technology in place by the year 20XX?

[makattak]

Technological hurdles aside, how long do you think it will be before congress mandates the that the automakers have the technology in place by the year 20XX?

Yeah, I love how that's how our government resolves problems:

"I will promise to phase out gasoline as our main means of transportation by 2020"

Wow, that's a bold plan, what does it involve?

"We'll require that the companies do it"







That's their big plan: We will just pass a law and then it will HAVE to happen.

Sometimes I just want to slap people.

[Nick1911]

That's their big plan: We will just pass a law and then it will HAVE to happen.

Sometimes I just want to slap people.

Hank Rearden: "How long do you expect me to last operating at a loss?"

Jim Taggert: "You'll find a way!  You always do!!"

Atlas Shrugged.

[MechAg94]

When they talk about charging a car battery in the time it takes to fill your tank, they are likely assuming anything under say 20 minutes is reasonable. 

On the amps/voltage, I figure they could come up with some sort of semi-idiot proof plug with feedback that wouldn't allow the breaker to close.  If anything, they would return to practice of having someone else "fill the tank".  High voltage would definitely increase the training and maintenance requirement. 

[Firethorn]

On the amps/voltage, I figure they could come up with some sort of semi-idiot proof plug with feedback that wouldn't allow the breaker to close.  If anything, they would return to practice of having someone else "fill the tank".  High voltage would definitely increase the training and maintenance requirement. 

My thought was to include a small gauge 'communication line' - Unless the car okay's charging, voltage doesn't flow.  It doesn't okay charging unless sensors verify a good plug-in.

[AJ Dual]

When they talk about charging a car battery in the time it takes to fill your tank, they are likely assuming anything under say 20 minutes is reasonable. 

On the amps/voltage, I figure they could come up with some sort of semi-idiot proof plug with feedback that wouldn't allow the breaker to close.  If anything, they would return to practice of having someone else "fill the tank".  High voltage would definitely increase the training and maintenance requirement. 

I agree, it shouldn't be too hard to create a plug with very deep and unusually shaped prongs that has both mechanical and electronic cut-outs on both the car and the plug when it's not seated all the way into the car that's triply-redundant. And a "go" signal from the car to the "pump" that's only possible when the circuit is closed and a whole slew of switches and contacts are closed should be easy to set up.

It should be pretty easy to make a plug system that indeed is idiot proof. Because you'd have to be extremely intelligent (albeit very, very unwise) and adept in both mechanics and electronics to defeat the safeties and expose yourself to the amperage.

[Gewehr98]

That's still a lot of amps. 

A hell of a lot of amps, and the cable that has to provide that amperage?   

[RaspberrySurprise]

That's still a lot of amps. 

A hell of a lot of amps, and the cable that has to provide that amperage?   

1.21 GIGAWATTS!

[MechAg94]

No argument there.  It also doesn't have to be idiot proof for the workers so much as the drivers. 

The question also is how would you be charged? 

[Monkeyleg]

Doesn't sound so much like a cable as a connection that you'd have to extend to the car. Probably so inflexible that the outlet on the cars would have to be at a standard height, or at least within a certain range of height.