Author Topic: Capital punishment  (Read 8991 times)

Iain

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Capital punishment
« on: November 22, 2005, 04:30:12 AM »
I guess this is inevitability going to become partly about the rights and wrongs of 'eye for eye' justice, but I'd like to discuss practicalities.

After the murder of a British police officer the other day a former top policeman has called for the reintroduction of the death penalty for copkillers. I'm beginning to suspect that there is a great deal of support for the death penalty amongst the British public, at least there is in the aftermath of events like this. There is little support for the death penalty amongst almost all politicians, and certainly no party runs with it in their platform.

Taken from wikipedia's article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_Kingdom

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1947: On 27 February, Walter Rowland is hanged at Manchester for the murder of Olive Balchin after consistently maintaining his innocence. While he had been awaiting execution, another man had confessed to the crime. A Home Office report dismissed his confession as a fake, but in 1951 this man attacked another woman and was found guilty but insane.
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1950: Timothy Evans is hanged on 9 March at Pentonville for the murder of his baby daughter at 10 Rillington Place, north-west London. He had also confessed to killing his wife. A fellow inhabitant at the same address, John Christie, later found to be a sexual serial killer, gave key evidence against Evans. Christie was executed in 1953 for the murder of his own wife. Evans received a posthumous pardon in 1966. In 2004 the Court of Appeal refused to consider quashing the conviction due to the costs and resources that would be involved. See the article on 10 Rillington Place.
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1950: George Kelly, who was hanged at Liverpool on 28 March of this year for murder, had his conviction quashed by the Court of Appeal in June 2003.
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1952: Mahmood Hussein Mattan, a Somali seaman, is hanged on 3 September in Cardiff for murder. The Court of Appeal quashes his conviction in 1998 and grants him a posthumous pardon after hearing that crucial evidence implicating another Somali as the most likely culprit was withheld at his trial.
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1953: On 28 January Derek Bentley is executed at Wandsworth prison as an accomplice to the murder of a police officer by his 16 year old friend Christopher Craig. Craig as a minor was not executed and instead served 10 years. Derek Bentley was granted a posthumous pardon on 30 July 1998.*
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1962: James Hanratty is executed at Bedford on 4 April after a controversial rape-murder trial. In 2002, following his family's efforts to have his conviction overturned, Hanratty's body is exhumed and his DNA compared with samples found at the crime scene. However, the Court of Appeal upholds his conviction after forensic scientists link Hanratty's DNA to the crime scene samples*.
* The last two cases are starred merely because there is significant doubt over these convictions, and doubt over convictions where the death penalty is instituted is my point really.
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TarpleyG

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Capital punishment
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2005, 05:51:17 AM »
Why the death penalty just for cop killers?  Why not the death penalty for killing anyone?  I have never understood what makes a cop's life more important than anyone else's.

Greg

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Capital punishment
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2005, 06:35:33 AM »
Iain, interesting topic.  I don't think that any of the examples given change my mind, that capital punishment is an excellent deterrent to all but the hardest of criminals.

If the alternative is to put a killer up in a hotel-like lockdown for life, with cable TV, access to higher education, and recreation, paid for by the tax money of good citizens, while the victim is cold in the ground and his/her family suffers the loss for the rest of their lives, I'm inclined in CLEAR-CUT cases, (DNA evidence, multiple eyewitnesses) to want the death penalty applied within 1 year of sentencing.  None of this 25 years sitting on death row filing appeals and petitions.  Zap 'em and send 'em to hell where they belong.

charby

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Capital punishment
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2005, 06:52:15 AM »
You know people complain about how inmates have cable television and blah blah. I'd rather have them behind bars with a few creature comforts than out wandering in the population.

To me it makes sense, keep the inmates pacified with cable TV and they won't be bored and dreaming up ways to assault the guards.

For many of the inmates, prison is the keep them out of the American population. Many Criminals will not be rehabilitated, once they serve their sentence and are released, do you think they want to work a 9-5 when they can get $ a lot easier and quicker than working? Look at sex offenders, they are released and some are labeled likely to offend again. How are we supposed to call these folks rehabilitated?

I'm not for the death penalty, mostly because you don't replace a life by taking a life and financially because its cheaper to keep someone locked up for life than it is to put them to death under the current system. Yes we have read or heard about about the 19th century where someone was found guilty and sentenced and put to death shortly afterwards, but a lot of innocent people where executed and hence all the long appeals process came out.

I can only imagine that for every inmate that there are a dozen people running around in the population who are committing heinous crimes and will never be caught.

Charby
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Capital punishment
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2005, 07:49:13 AM »
Quote from: charby
You know people complain about how inmates have cable television and blah blah. I'd rather have them behind bars with a few creature comforts than out wandering in the population.

To me it makes sense, keep the inmates pacified with cable TV and they won't be bored and dreaming up ways to assault the guards.

For many of the inmates, prison is the keep them out of the American population. Many Criminals will not be rehabilitated, once they serve their sentence and are released, do you think they want to work a 9-5 when they can get $ a lot easier and quicker than working? Look at sex offenders, they are released and some are labeled likely to offend again. How are we supposed to call these folks rehabilitated?

I'm not for the death penalty, mostly because you don't replace a life by taking a life and financially because its cheaper to keep someone locked up for life than it is to put them to death under the current system. Yes we have read or heard about about the 19th century where someone was found guilty and sentenced and put to death shortly afterwards, but a lot of innocent people where executed and hence all the long appeals process came out.

I can only imagine that for every inmate that there are a dozen people running around in the population who are committing heinous crimes and will never be caught.

Charby
We agree on some of this, CC.
I also would rather have them locked up than wandering around society.  If you can't rehab 'em, keep 'em in chains.

Assault a guard, with intent to kill?  Execute the violent criminals.  Isn't that what you're doing with your handgun if they assault your wife?

Sex offenders released?  2nd strike, don't worry about rehabilitating them.  Execute 'em.

Can I see a reliable citation/source about how it's cheaper to give a convict life in prison versus the death penalty?

and finally, re: unjust executions of long ago: with new, forensic science, DNA evidence, and so on, we should reserve the death penalty for those that have overwhelming evidence against them.  But, once that's established, snuff 'em quick like Jeff Probst does torches on Survivor.  
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Fjolnirsson

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Capital punishment
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2005, 08:35:57 AM »
"To me it makes sense, keep the inmates pacified with cable TV and they won't be bored and dreaming up ways to assault the guards."

Sounds a lot like the way they treat the public at large, too.
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charby

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Capital punishment
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2005, 08:46:06 AM »
Here is some examples in this thesis, I know the thesis is dated from 1998, but it is full of cited sources.

http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html

Phil Porter phporter@mindspring.com
The Economics of Capital Punishment


Contention:
Sentencing a prisoner to life in prison is a better allocation of resources than sentencing him to be executed.

First I'll present figures representing the dollar costs of capital punishment versus life in prison/no parole. Then I'll discuss the deterrent effect as the only legitimate rational justification for capital punishment. Then I'll discuss the externalities of capital punishment.

A Duke University study found... "The death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of imprisonment for life." ( The costs of processing murder cases in North Carolina / Philip J. Cook, Donna B. Slawson ; with the assistance of Lori A. Gries. [Durham, NC] : Terry Sanford Institute of Public Policy, Duke University, 1993.)

"The death penalty costs California $90 million annually beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system - $78 million of that total is incurred at the trial level." (Sacramento Bee, March 18, 1988).

"A 1991 study of the Texas criminal justice system estimated the cost of appealing capital murder at $2,316,655. In contrast, the cost of housing a prisoner in a Texas maximum security prison single cell for 40 years is estimated at $750,000." (Punishment and the Death Penalty, edited by Robert M. Baird and Stuart E. Rosenbaum 1995 p.109 )

"Florida spent an estimated $57 million on the death penalty from 1973 to 1988 to achieve 18 executions - that is an average of $3.2 million per execution."
(Miami Herald, July 10, 1988).

"Florida calculated that each execution there costs some $3.18 million. If incarceration is estimated to cost $17000/year, a comparable statistic for life in prison of 40 years would be $680,000."
(The Geography of Execution... The Capital Punishment Quagmire in America, Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood 1997 p.6)

Figures from the General Accounting Office are close to these results. Total annual costs for all U.S. Prisons, State and Federal, was $17.7 billion in 1994 along with a total prison population of 1.1 million inmates. That amounts to $16100 per inmate/year.
(GOA report and testimony FY-97 GGD-97-15 )

From this; the cost of keeping a 25-year-old inmate for 50 years at present amounts to $805,000. Assuming 75 years as an average life span, the $805,000 figure would be the cost of life in prison. So roughly it's costing us $2 million more to execute someone than it would cost to keep them in jail for life. This is just the dollar cost, the externalities will be discussed in a moment.

The belief that the death penalty deters capital crimes, to a greater degree than the alternatives, can be the only rational argument in support of capital punishment. I do not consider revenge a rational action for the following reasons: Revenge doesn't satisfy us all and it may cause harm to some. Our ability to determine justice is limited to the parameters of our paradigm. And, a vengeful act may justify retaliation, thus creating a cycle of violence. Punishment may be useful as a measure to correct the behavior of those who wish to be members of society. But, punishment is nothing more than revenge when the subject is not a candidate for rehabilitation. Revenge is nothing more than an emotional response.
This leaves us with the question: Is there a deterrent effect from the death penalty, or not?
(Note: When I refer to the deterrent effect, I mean the deterrent effect over and above the alternative punishment of life in prison/no parole.)

In summarizing the results of his study Isaac Ehrlich said, " Put differently, an additional execution per year over the period in question may have resulted, on average, in seven or eight fewer murders."
(The Deterrent effect of Capital Punishment: A Question of Life and Death, Ehrlich, Isaac. American Economic Review, LXV(3), June 1975:414. Extracted from: Deterrence and the Death Penalty: A critical Review of the Econometric Literature, by Robert G. Hann 1976 p.6)

Ehrlich's study has been the main basis for the argument that there is a deterrent effect to the death penalty. Most, if not all, subsequent studies have criticized Ehrlich's findings on various grounds.

"The time series model and the data used by Ehrlich permit no inference whatsoever about the deterrence effect of capital punishment."
(The Deterrence Controversy: A Reconsideration of the time series evidence on Capital Punishment, Passell and Taylor, AMS Press 1976. From Hann p.6 )

"By no stretch of the imagination can Ehrlich's analysis be said to affirm a pattern of deterrence in the relationship between executions, risk and homicide rates."
(Deterrence, Brutalization or Nonsense: A Critique of Isaac Ehrlich's Research on Capital Punishment, Bowers and Pierce , Center for Applied Social Research, Northeastern University, unpublished, 1975:35. From Hann p.6)

"Bowers and Pierce take the view that available data are totally inadequate for researching the deterrence question. However, they believe that, if Ehrlich were to continue to maintain confidence in the data, he would have to conclude from their analysis, not only that capital punishment does not deter crime, but something much stronger, that capital punishment increases crime." (Hann p.40) "...executions have a definite brutalizing effect on society." (Bowers and Pierce,1975:35 from Hann, p.40)
The expectaion of the same utility gained by those who endorse the death penalty, at the time of an execution, raises the marginal benefit of like violent action. Thus, more people are inclined to violent acts, because the marginal benefit of engaging in a violent act has increased. (i.e. The Brutalization Effect.)
"... later studies result in equally conclusive findings, that each execution is related to more (not fewer) murders." (Hann p.11)
(Deterrence and the Death Penalty: A critical Review of the Econometric Literature, by Robert G. Hann 1976 )

"Executions demonstrate that it is correct and appropriate to kill those who have gravely offended us." P.274 From his study of the execution/homicide relationship in the State of New York from 1907 to 1964 Bower's concludes: " The point is that the way we have carried out executions historically in the United States appears to have contributed slightly but significantly to the increase of homicides." P.302
(Legal Homicide, William J. Bowers 1984)

"Ehrlich's work does not meet generally accepted standards in the areas of behavioral theory; accuracy of data; and statistical techniques." " In summary, Ehrlich's work does not meet the generally accepted standards of statistical research."
(Deterrence and the Death Penalty: A critical Review of the Econometric Literature, by Robert G. Hann 1976 p.14)

Concluding from their study, Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood wrote: "Analysis, reinforced the concept of disproportionate involvement of youthful minority people in violence and its concomitant punishment and, in concert with findings from related research, provides some support for the concept of discrete regional cultures of capital punishment. If capital punishment were a significant deterrent to homicide, a sharply inverse relationship should appear between the two phenomena, particularly when seen in longitudinal perspective. That high homicide rates and high execution rates are strongly positively correlated does little to advance the deterrence argument." p.69
(The Geography of Execution... The Capital Punishment Quagmire in America, Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood 1997)

The murder rate in the U.S. in 1992 was 9.3 murders per 100,000 population. 16 States had a murder rate higher than the national average. Of those 16 all but one, the sixteenth, was a death penalty State.
(Uniform Crime Reports, Oct. 3, 1993. U.S. Department of Justice, F.B.I.)

" In sum, with the lonely exception of Ehrlich, whose work generally has been seriously questioned if not totally discredited, death penalty researchers have found virtually no support for the argument that the level of use of capital punishment (i.e. certainty) influences U.S. murder rates." (Murder, Capital Punishment, and Deterrence: A Review of the Literature, William C. Bailey And Ruth D. Peterson) taken from: (The Death Penalty in America, current controversies. Edited by Hugo Adam Bedau, 1997 p.143)

Further, some proponents of the death penalty argue that the celerity (swiftness) of executions would lend to, or ensure, the deterrent effect. But, " Contrary to theoretical expectations, Bailey (1980a) found no evidence that speedy executions discourage murder." (Bedau, 1997 P.146)

In summary of the deterrence question:
There is no clear empirical evidence to support the contention that capital punishment has any deterrent effect in the commission of the crime of murder. (Over and above the alternative punishment of life in prison/no parole.)

In fairness to Ehrlich, much of the controversy surrounding his work is due to the interpretation of the results. Many death penalty advocates interpret the results incorrectly by insinuating that the findings show an additional deterrent effect over and above an alternatively severe punishment of life in prison/no parole. This is not the case, as Ehrlich himself said: "My paper (1975a p.416) cautioned that the empirical absence of a theoretically important variable-- the severity of imprisonment for murder-- may have affected the results obtained."
(American Economic Review, vol.67 June 1977 p.455 The Deterrent effect of Capital punishment: Reply) Dr. Ehrlich replies to my e-mail

(Point of interest...An email debate with Brad the economist over Dr. Ehrlich's results.)

Even if a deterrent effect could be shown I would have to argue against the death penalty for the following reasons: It's unfair, it's fallible and there is a pronounced historical tendency for abuse.

"The Supreme Court has more or less acknowledged that race continues to play a major role in capital sentencing in America; in any event, this is an undeniable fact. But the Court has decided to do nothing about this form of discrimination and refuses to hear future claims based on it." (Gross and Mauro,p.xiii)

"It is no small comment on our society that we openly and consciously tolerate a system in which race frequently determines whom we execute and whom we spare." (Gross and Mauro, p.xiv)


If you are a black killing a white in Oklahoma you are 10.1% more likely to get a death sentence, then a white killing a white. Table a.1 p.235*
In North Carolina with the same scenario a black is 6% more likely than a white to get a death sentence. Table a.7 p.237*
In Mississippi.... 20.8% more likely. Table a.13 p.239*
In Virginia.... 6.9% more likely. Table a.19 p.241*
In Arkansas.... 10.5% more likely. Table a.25 p.243*
*(Death and Discrimination, Racial disparities in Capital Sentencing Samuel R. Gross and Robert Mauro. 1989)

"Following the Furman decision, legislatures adopted death sentencing procedures that were supposed to eliminate the influence of race from the death sentencing process. However, evidence of racial discrimination in the application of capital punishment continues. Nearly 40% of those executed since 1976 have been black, even though blacks constitute only 12% of the population. And in almost every death penalty case, the race of the victim is white. Last year alone, 89% of the death sentences carried out involved white victims, even though 50% of the homicides in this country have black victims. Of the 229 executions that have occurred since the death penalty was reinstated, only one has involved a white defendant for the murder of a black person."
(Death Penalty Information Center: http://www.essential.org/dpic/dpic.r05.html )

"A 1987 study presented evidence that 350 people convicted of capital crimes in the USA between 1900 and 1985 were innocent of the crimes charged. In most cases the discovery of new evidence resulted in acquittal, pardon, commutation of sentence or dismissal of charges, often years after the original conviction. Some prisoners escaped execution by minutes, but 23 were actually executed."
(Hugo Adam Bedau and Michael L. Radelet, "Miscarriages of justice in potentially capital cases" Stanford Law Review, vol. 40, No. 1, November 1987, pages 21-179. Extracted from: When the State Kills... The death penalty: a human rights issue, Amnesty International 1989 )

"During 1977-96, 1,957 prisoners were removed from a death sentence as a result of dispositions other than execution (resentencing, retrial, commutation, or death while awaiting execution)." (U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE BUREAU OF JUSTICE STATISTICS By Tracy L. Snell, BJS Statistician.)

"Since 1973, sixty-nine people, more than one percent of all death-row prisoners, have been released from death row after evidence of their innocence surfaced. Seventeen of these condemned prisoners, including seven from Illinois alone, have been released since 1993. " " In many instances, innocence was discovered not because of the normal appeals process but as a result of new scientific techniques, investigations by journalists, and the tireless work of dedicated attorneys. None of these resources are available to most death-row prisoners."
(Fatal Mistakes and the Criminal 'Injustice' System By Michael Ross and Kurt Rosenberg THE QUAKER ABOLITIONIST Summer 1997)

We've had 5000 years of human civilization to establish the fact that governments will, sooner or later, abuse power. Bureaucrats run governments, always have, and probably always will.

" One needs to assume Machiavellian behavior, deceit, or dishonesty on the part of bureaucrats, because in all likelihood the pursuit of their own interest will be, as it is for everyone else, veiled in the self-perception of dedication and altruism."
(The Logic of Bureaucratic Conduct, Bretton and Wintrope 1982:152)

Past behavior is certainly indicative of future behavior. Therefore, it is irrational to extend to bureaucrats the power to take any action that cannot be reversed. Particularly, if those actions involve life and death.

I cite the following example of bureaucratic incompetence: "Of course, like so many condemned prisoners, Roger Coleman had anything but the finest attorneys, both at trial and for his initial appeal. On appeal, his new attorneys misread the Virginia statute regarding the time limit for appeals and filed their appeal one day late. The courts held that the late filing was the same as not filing and refused to review Coleman's case, despite substantial evidence of his innocence. And the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that he could not complain that his attorney had erred, because he was not legally entitled to an attorney after his initial trial. Roger Coleman was executed in 1992, his claims of innocence ignored. As former Virginia Attorney General Mary Sue Terry so succinctly put it: "Evidence of innocence is irrelevant." "
(Fatal Mistakes and the Criminal 'Injustice' System By Michael Ross and Kurt Rosenberg THE QUAKER ABOLITIONIST Summer 1997)

Supposedly, much of the high costs of the death penalty are due to the procedural safeguards of the court system, but as the above example shows, the bureaucrats of the court system are just as inept as any other government bureaucrat. Giving bureaucrats the right to kill puts us all under an increased risk. You never know when they'll make being a Jew, a gypsy, or a black a capital crime. You may think this sounds outrageous, but it has happened before.
In a society governed by reason, bureaucrats do not have the power to prescribe death as a cure for societal ills.

In the absence of a deterrent effect and in light of the inequity, fallibility and abuse of the death penalty, can we afford the costs attributable to this action? According to one definition of efficiency in society: a state in which no one can be made better off without making someone else worse off, capital punishment fails the test. Another definition of efficiency states "... acting in a way that achieves given goals with a minimum of expense, waste, and effort." (Dolan and Goodman, Economics of Public Policy, p.4) Capital punishment fails this test also.

The existence of the death penalty shows that there is utility to be derived from violence and the taking of life. This utility is exhibited most predominately during or near the time of an execution. (see graph) This exhibition of utility is likely to increase the marginal benefits to violence in the general population, particularly among those of us who are more driven by emotion than by reason. Unfortunately, this is the same segment of the population least likely to be cognizant of a deterrent effect, even if one in fact existed.

The death penalty is an action that reflects on all of society, not just those that initiate it. It's an action that makes a great number of us feel less than human. It's a dastardly deed that dirties us all. The execution of an innocent person would have to be one of the most heinous acts ever committed by man. It reflects on all of us and is entirely preventable.

So in the absence of any evidence of a deterrent effect, capital punishment is nothing more than an animalistic irrational action that has the effect of lessening the value of human life. The cost of Capital punishment is the cost of giving up the ideals of humanity. In other words, it's a loss of positive ethos, the very thing that places us above the animals.
(Ethos: "the distinguishing character, sentiment, moral nature, or guiding beliefs of a person, group or institution." Webster's Dictionary)

Are we to be ruled by reason, or by emotion?
The presumption of rationality is the underlying social contract that forms the basis of all human interactions. Irrational behavior by the authorities of the society breaches the social contract. If our leaders are not obliged to behave rationally, then it is implied that: no one is obliged to be rational. The cost incurred by this breach of the social contract is chaos. (This logic would support the "brutalizing effect" of capital punishment.) Further, because it is the Presumption of rationality that is the basic social contract, violence is never justified, except in self-defense. It is this presumption of rationality that allows for the creation of civil society. As individuals we are obliged to presume that others will act as reasonable beings. Others, in return, are obliged to uphold that expectation. This is the social contract that forms civil society.
See the argument...The Death Penalty is Irrational (This includes an efficiency argument based on the Coase Theorem)

"For most of the past decade, polls have indicated that roughly 85 percent of Texans support the death penalty. But a new survey shows that the execution of Ms. Tucker and the resulting debate led some residents of the Lone Star State to have second thoughts about capital punishment. The survey, conducted by the University of Texas and the Scripps Howard news organization, found that backing for the death penalty has now slipped to 68 percent in the state. The poll had a margin of error of plus or minus three percentage points." This represents an almost 20% drop the last poll taken in 1994. From: (March 23, 1998 N.Y.TIMES Death-Penalty Support Falls After Execution. By B. DRUMMOND AYRES Jr.) This is compelling evidence supporting my contention that the death penalty aspect of our justice system is irrational. Are matters of life and death to be determined by public opinion? This is pure lynch mob mentality.

A further externality comes from the profiling of juries that sit on capital punishment cases. This process denies an entire segment of the population the right to serve on juries equally with their peers. Because of an ethical commitment they are reduced to a second class status. (Example: Catholics and Quakers would be denied a jury position based on their religious beliefs.) Discussion with Catholic theologians

Further, regarding jury profiling:
It is my contention that; those jurors who support the death penalty have a bias that leans toward granting greater credibility to the government's position. This, as opposed to a more neutral bias that a random sampling of all potential jurors would exhibit. If this is true, then capital cases are fixed. It's a stacked deck. The defendant goes into the trial as a loser. The presumption of innocence is defeated.

These costs represent negative externalities to me and all others who believe that reason should rule human behavior. Is satisfying the blood lusts of an irrational majority a justifiable expense? Those who are harmed by the externalities of an activity should be compensated by those who gain utility from that activity. Maybe those who gain from capital punishment should bear the burden of an additional tax to pay for their irrational desires. Or, perhaps as compensation we should execute a politician along with every criminal in order to neutralize the negative externalities?


FIN

In this section I want to present further views that may be regarded as somewhat more subjective in nature.
First, a note on the concept of punishment: Punishment, except when used in the context of rehabilitation, is nothing more than revenge. Wrongdoers accept punishment as a requirement for rehabilitation into society. For those who pose a danger to society and are not candidates for rehabilitation, as would be the prudent view of murderers, some type of confined exile would be the appropriate rational course. For example, for the act of first degree murder, I would not argue with society's right to exile an individual for life in solitary confinement. This action would accomplish the goal of protecting society, as well as lessening the dollar cost and the numerous negative externalities of the present capital punishment system.

Regarding the controversy over deterrence; one might reasonably infer that capital punishment might, depending on the state of society at the moment, have a deterrent effect, have a brutalization effect, have no effect, or have a retaliatory effect. For example in a totalitarian regime, killing a police officer may be viewed by those that oppose the regime, as being a necessary act. To execute the perpetrator of this act may induce others with similar views to retaliate with like action.

The death penalty is not a good act. No one could watch an execution and say, "this is a good thing". And, as I have shown, it is not a necessary thing.
So what is it?
It's just pure vindictiveness on the part of an irrational mob. It's the action of a hypocritical egotistical social paradigm that perceives its value system as the absolute authority in determining justice in the universe. It's a system whose actions conclude that "might makes right".

If you think that the gang of state strapping a woman down to a table and injecting poison into her veins isn't an evil act, then you, your God and your entire belief system are crap. If this is not evil in your social paradigm, then your society is crap.
The gang of state executed Jesus Christ.
The gang of state executed 5 million Jews.
The gang of state virtually exterminated the native American.
On and on and on...
The abuses of power, by the gang of state, are innumerable and indescribably heinous in their abuse of humanity.
And, you continue to enable this abuse...



This thesis is meant to stimulate debate.
Please send comments or an antithesis to:

Phil Porter phporter@mindspring.com

Copyright© 1998 Phil Porter
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mfree

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Capital punishment
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2005, 09:31:11 AM »
They need to have a "dead to the world" sentence, ship them off to a penal institution where their only daily contact is the guard and the lawyer, no family, no friends, no TV news, frankly, no TV period.... no books, no writing instruments, nothing but clothes, food, bed, maybe some solitary exercise once a week. But SOLITARY. Heck, could even make it no face-to-face contact with the guards (herded electronically through locking/mobile doors and a voice over a PA) and contact to lawyer is electronic only.

Could also call this the "living dead" sentence. No fancy menus either, three squares designed to sustain, and it's the same thing every day. EVERY DAY.

Should be even less expensive than a regular cell costs per year and is undoubtedly harsher than standard "life".

charby

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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2005, 09:59:28 AM »
mfree

Some misguided individual would probably consider that unconstitutional, but I like your way of thinking!

Charby
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Iain

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Capital punishment
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2005, 09:59:34 AM »
Felonious - where there is incontrovertible evidence it comes down to taste. I'm not sure how I feel about the principle, but I am bothered by the practice, precisely because there are some many cases (and just a handful is many where capital punishment is concerned) where for one reason or another things have gone wrong.

Referring to the thesis posted above - it's a dynamite issue but many will insist that race plays a role in sentencing. If we admit that it does, and even if we insist that it is not conscious then we open ourselves to the charge that human falibility is not up to scratch on this decision.

Stepping away from race, in one of the cases I cite above Agricola tells me on THR that Bentley was acquitted partly because the judge misdirected the jury on a point of law. This raises two issues in my mind - one, that the slightest misdirection or error (such as the one in charby's post where an appeal was registered a day late) should not determine whether a man lives or dies. And secondly, because these errors exist the time scales involved are phenomenal.

I suppose I should declare that I come from the school of thought that it is better to let guilty men go free than ever lock up an innocent man, so posthumous acquittals sit very uncomfortably with an fleeting feelings of support for capital punishment that I may entertain. Deterrent? Possibly, don't know. Not sure that the risks entailed are worth it though.

Would an abolitionist ever stand a chance running for Gov. of Texas? Genuine question, I'm trying to get a feeling for what it is that support for capital punishment is built upon, and what it is that continues to stand solid despite any concerns that I hope to have highlighted above.

On the subject of the thesis that charby posted - there is the claim that the death penalty costs California $90m annually, I read elsewhere that Cali carries out sentence on only 1% of those condemned. True? Lack of political will or worse?
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2005, 10:40:44 AM »
I'm something of an agnostic about the death penalty  in the instances where the alternative would be life in prison with no possibility of parole - ever. Those cases I am perfectly happy to go with the wishes of the majority of the public of my state. Some pros and cons that I see.

Pro

Death penalty convictions are far less likely to result in the conviction of an innocent, because of the additional scrutiny in every DP case and the natural squeamishness of juries to convict in a dp case when the burden of proof question is iffy. Abolishing the DP would almost certainly cause a far greater % of innocents to be convicted, and for them to serve out their lives in prison without the hordes of ACLU lawyers fighting their cases pro bono.

As a  generalization, death penalty opponents are part of the same group that is in favor of reducing prison sentences across the board. They currently have a cause in the DP that I am ambivilent toward and I'd rather see them wasting their energy on that than getting "reformed" murderers released earlier.

Con

The death penalty is a sop to the "hang 'em high" crowd - the anger that those folks feel would be much better channeled towards getting murderers (and rapists and child molesters) locked up forever, than towards just killing a very few.

You cannot commute a DP sentence that has already been carried out - I'll grant that the anti-DP argument that implies that there is any way you can "make right" an erroneous prison term is silly, however at least in the case of an erroneous prison term caught in time you can at least commute the portion of the term that hasn't yet been served.
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Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2005, 11:59:31 AM »
Good points raised, all round.

Iain, I would have to argue against the race inequity.  If you factor it based upon percentage of violent crimes by caucasians vs. pct. by each minority, the numbers are equitable.  Raw figures show a disproportionate number of minorities sentenced to death; more violent crimes are indeed committed by minorities.  
Once you factor as a percent of the total WITHIN that race, it's equitable.
I'm struggling to express this clearly.  Hope it's getting through.

Say there are 10 guys on death row; 6 are black; 2 are Latino, 2 are white.  Looks pretty bad, even disproportional.
But if 60% of violent crimes are commited by blacks, 20% by Latino, and 20% are White, then it evens out.
That's what I'm trying to say.

Also, I admit that it's a task I would hate to have to take on, to craft a policy on who does and doesn't get the DP.  But when you err on the side of letting violent criminals walk, you create additional victims, which are as much victims of the SYSTEM as they are of the criminal.

Would you rather have the blood of a criminal on your hands, who APPEARS to have done a crime worthy of death, with a proven past history of violent crime, or the blood of a total innocent-- a grandchild of yours or a daughter of mine, perhaps...

Very hard to rightly divide.

Re: DP abolitionist in Texas? Doubtful.

I don't want to be the "hang 'em high" apologist.
If you'll allow me a bit of a silly comparison, Duane "Dog" Chapman exhibits much of how I'd like to see it done.
Come down hard initially, see if there is room for rehabilitation within the individual; if so, provide them opportunities to show trustworthiness.  
If they earn that, factor it into the final outcome.

Some are goblins.  Animals.  Some truly deserve to die.  Some don't.
As long as due diligence is shown to assure that they are guilty, I'm for the DP.

richyoung

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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2005, 12:10:18 PM »
What do you do to a "life without parole inmate" who:

   - kills another inmate?
   - kills a guard?
   - rapes and kills a female guard or other prison employee?

Somehow, giving him or her another "Life w/o parole" sentence doesn't mean anything in such a case - they had that already.  Not to mention the chance that soem Norman Mailer/Rob Reiner type will convince a "limousine liberal" crowd to pressure a like-minded governor to parole or pardon them anyway - already happened, with fatal results.

Its hard to understand, but here goes.  this society values life.  We show that value by putting a heavy burden on those found guilty of unlawfully taking someone's life.  Since the death penealty is "more severe" than the alternatives, a society that has the death penalty, (fairly and SWIFTLY executed, of course...) values llife more than one that doesn't.  For those that argue it isn't a deterent, I would point out five things:

1. It has a ZERO recidivism rate.
2. Properly done, one need not worry about the punished "escaping confinement".
3.  We haven't really HAD the death penalty in the US - at least not swiftly performed.
4.  Some critters, (Sadaam Hussein, 9/11 terrorists, serial child murder/rapists) just deserve it.
5.  Keeps 'em form further polluting the gene pool.
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Iain

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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2005, 01:04:54 PM »
Felonious -

Race was perhaps a bad example. I was basing that statement on the following that was taken from charby's article:

Quote
If you are a black killing a white in Oklahoma you are 10.1% more likely to get a death sentence, then a white killing a white. Table a.1 p.235*
In North Carolina with the same scenario a black is 6% more likely than a white to get a death sentence. Table a.7 p.237*
In Mississippi.... 20.8% more likely. Table a.13 p.239*
In Virginia.... 6.9% more likely. Table a.19 p.241*
In Arkansas.... 10.5% more likely. Table a.25 p.243*
*(Death and Discrimination, Racial disparities in Capital Sentencing Samuel R. Gross and Robert Mauro. 1989)
Can't vouch for those statistics at all, but the apparent claim here is that a black killing a white is more likely to get sentenced to death than a white murderer is. This sidesteps absolute numbers with regards to differences in rates of offending amongst different ethnic groups.

Quote
But when you err on the side of letting violent criminals walk, you create additional victims, which are as much victims of the SYSTEM as they are of the criminal.
I believe that the judgement has to be made that it is better not to lock up innocent men, and certainly not to execute innocent men. You're right though, it's not a nice decision.

We've had several high profile acquittals in recent years. The Birmingham Six, the Bridgewater case, Angela Jennings. Whilst there is a zero recividism rate, there is also a zero Lazarus rate.

I'm firmly on the side of locking them up forever. Who is them? Arguable death penalty cases I suppose.

richyoung - Remember feeling that Caucescau got what he deserved, hard to argue with Nuremburg too.
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telewinz

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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2005, 03:10:22 PM »
For most states dealing with budget problems (and what state isn't?) capital punishment will NEVER be reintroduced. Charby posts what I have long suspected, it's all about money!  Either change our Constitution (not likely) and eliminate the number of permissible appeals or we will just have to continue to pretend "we don't believe in the effectiveness of the death penalty".  I know the inmates I supervise think it's a deterrent but what do they know?
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2005, 03:34:58 PM »
Quote from: telewinz
we will just have to continue to pretend "we don't believe in the effectiveness of the death penalty".  I know the inmates I supervise think it's a deterrent but what do they know?
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2005, 04:59:02 PM »
Quote from: Iain
Felonious -

Race was perhaps a bad example. I was basing that statement on the following that was taken from charby's article:

Quote
If you are a black killing a white in Oklahoma you are 10.1% more likely to get a death sentence, then a white killing a white. Table a.1 p.235*
In North Carolina with the same scenario a black is 6% more likely than a white to get a death sentence. Table a.7 p.237*
In Mississippi.... 20.8% more likely. Table a.13 p.239*
In Virginia.... 6.9% more likely. Table a.19 p.241*
In Arkansas.... 10.5% more likely. Table a.25 p.243*
*(Death and Discrimination, Racial disparities in Capital Sentencing Samuel R. Gross and Robert Mauro. 1989)
Can't vouch for those statistics at all, but the apparent claim here is that a black killing a white is more likely to get sentenced to death than a white murderer is. This sidesteps absolute numbers with regards to differences in rates of offending amongst different ethnic groups..
The problem with those sort of raw statistics as a proof of race disparity in sentencing is that they don't factor in all sorts of other issues.  For example, were all the convictions in the population pool for the same kind of murder? A person who murders in the commission of rape or armed robbery is typically going to get a harsher sentence than a person who quarrels and murders in a fight. We know that the prevalance of these other crimes are much higher in some communities than others.

I've seen that type of statistic used to "prove" that women are discriminated against by the system because husband murderers get longer sentences on the average than wife murderers. The statistic doesn't factor in that while more men kill their wives overall, of those who do kill, a smaller proportion are proven to be premeditated (for obvious reasons, a man more commonly doesn't need to wait until his wife is asleep to murder her) and the average sentence of the population pool of wife murderers is watered down by all the men convicted of murdering their wives where it was a manslaughter type of killing and if the victim had been larger and stronger than the murderer they wouldn't have died.
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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2005, 10:25:16 PM »
Keep most of the current system intact. Add a true "supermax" type prison. Use it for repat violent offenders, and those busted for further crimes while incarcerated.

 What do I mean by "supermax"? A prison where you are stuck in a 10x10 cell, with a toilet, bubbler, pallet to sleep on, and an exercise bike hooked to a generator. Want to eat? Peddle x number of Kw/hrs on the bike, and food will drop in a slot (kinda like the lab rat hitting the button). Don't want to peddle? Then go hungry. You leave your cell a)when you die, b)for serious medical problems. Someone in general population starts getting out of hand? Take 'em to supermax for a week, and make sure they know that getting unruly again will result in a permanent stay...


 Eliminates the problem of repeat offenders (as they are now locked away forever). Shouldn't have any trouble with "innocent" men going, as there's only two ways to get there. And, should someone prove to have been innocent, they're still alive...

telewinz

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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2005, 12:26:45 AM »
But maybe there is more to it than just race.

If you are black and are sentenced to death you are also more likely to have prior felonies and have already served time in prison.  Having served on a jury I can't help but believe these "other" factors would impact a jury's/judge's decision making.   When determining punishment, you are suppose to look at the whole person, thats why courts have pre-sentencing reports.  Your lifestyle matters!
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Iain

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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2005, 12:57:57 AM »
You know details of prior convictions when serving on a jury in the US?

Also, if my greatest concern is about putting innocent men to death then why would reducing the number of appeals available help the situation from anything other than a financial point of view? If it takes 10, 15 years to run through all possible avenues that only indicates to me an acceptance that things go wrong and the necessity for multiple checks and balances when it comes to deciding life and death.

Stand_Watie - point taken, I just pulled those figures to demonstrate that I wasn't merely talking about the number of black men on death row as a total figure and more that I was referring to potential bias in sentencing. I shouldn't have touched race, I merely wanted to suggest that there are human factors that decide who gets to fry and who doesn't.
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telewinz

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« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2005, 01:48:27 AM »
"You know details of prior convictions when serving on a jury in the US?"

It's a matter of record in the crime reports complied by this FBI and most states. I have access to these reports.

"If it takes 10, 15 years to run through all possible avenues that only indicates to me an acceptance that things go wrong and the necessity for multiple checks and balances when it comes to deciding life and death."

Because America has 2/3's of all the lawyers in the World, they just don't chase ambulances, they chase hearses too.  What country EVER had a perfect justice system?  The Constitution says a FAIR trial, not a perfect trial.  What percentage of appeals (10-15 year process) result in an overturning of a death penalty conviction?  7%?  How often is a guilty man released on a legal technicality (is that justice?)?  Are you willing to increase your taxes to bring that figure down to 0%?  Justice costs money, lots of money.  Should we take the additional funds from education? healthcare?  OOPs, sorry, we already do.

Between 1973 and 2002, 7,254 death sentences were issued. These had led to 820 executions, 3,557 prisoners on death rowall for murder, 268 who died while incarcerated of natural causes, suicide or murder, 176 whose sentences were commuted by governors or state pardon boards, and 2,403 who were released, retried or resentenced by the courts. There were 59 executions in 2004.

Most notably, 67% of capital convictions are eventually overturned, mainly on procedural grounds although some were exonerated. Seven percent of those whose sentences were overturned between 1973 and 1995 have been found innocent. Ten percent were retried and resentenced to death
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Iain

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« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2005, 02:46:12 AM »
Interesting figures, thanks.

Maths is not my strong point, but I figure that between 1973 and 2002 if 7,254 death sentences are imposed that averages out to 250-ish per year. So between 1973 and 1995 that comes out to approx 5500. Of which 67% overturned so 3685, of those 7% are found innocent - that number is approx 250. Impossible to know how many innocents do end up executed, but when the system that imposes the death penalty is shown to be wrong approx 4.5% of the time (250/5500) I'd be worried.

You could bring that figure down to 0% right away - don't sentence anyone to death. A genuine life sentence is a genuine life span, although you can't give an innocent man back years of his life, you can't give a dead man back life at all.

To return to the Birmingham Six, they'd have had the death penalty imposed if we still had it, no question. Their confessions were beaten out of them. There are cases where a forcibly extracted confession causes a verdict to be overturned, and that is a technicality.

Release on a legal technicality is justice. It is up to the courts to get it right from a technical point of view. For instance - Derek Bentley referred to above was post-humously pardoned apparently on two grounds, one that the judge was hostile to him, and secondly that the judge misdirected the jury on a point of law. That shouldn't happen, but it does, and it precludes a fair trial, so guilty or not the trial was unfair. We've recently done away with double jeopardy.

It's messy, but it's not a perfect system as you say, and perhaps it is all about money. Clearly it's not easy to imagine being able to afford a system where no innocent man is put to death, therein is my objection. Not a moral problem with executing the guilty, but a moral problem with executing the innocent, which clearly has happened and is more than likely to still be happening all around the world. Yours is probably the fairest and best system to impose it, and it still doesn't seem to be up to it.
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2005, 05:55:40 AM »
Quote from: Iain
You know details of prior convictions when serving on a jury in the US?

Also, if my greatest concern is about putting innocent men to death then why would reducing the number of appeals available help the situation from anything other than a financial point of view? If it takes 10, 15 years to run through all possible avenues that only indicates to me an acceptance that things go wrong and the necessity for multiple checks and balances when it comes to deciding life and death.

Stand_Watie - point taken, I just pulled those figures to demonstrate that I wasn't merely talking about the number of black men on death row as a total figure and more that I was referring to potential bias in sentencing. I shouldn't have touched race, I merely wanted to suggest that there are human factors that decide who gets to fry and who doesn't.
I believe Ian, details of prior convictions vary by US state, and by the Judge in each case. It's much more likely to be considered in the punitive phase of the trial than in the portion of the trial that the jury considers guilt/innocence. Regarding race, the figures are used all the time by DP abolitionists, so I certainly think with that as already out there, race is fair game - the key is to tote up the racial issue fairly. *IF* I were a strong DP proponent and I believed that the dp was unfairly applied against black defendants, my solution would be simple - kill more white murderers. For a person who believes that the DP is an effective deterrent, more black murderers being put to death is simply unfair to whites, given that murderers kill within their own race the vast majority of the time.

Another issue that I have observed, (probably saying it is somewhat politically incorrect), that I admit is based entirely upon anecdotal evidence, I strongly suspect that black defendants are slightly more likely to get the DP, because juries tend to be from the population pool from whence the defendants come. And like it or not, the little old black church ladies that are more likely to sit on the juries of inner city black defendants, tend to be a little bit more of the "hang 'em high" mindset than our more "enlightened" white suburbanites.
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grampster

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« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2005, 06:52:05 AM »
A friend of mine suggested an alternative to capital punishment.  Somewhat retro idea.  You get convicted of a capital crime, or any life offense, you get delivered to the US Coast Guard who transfers you to a penal island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.  You are given a Leatherman and a Bic lighter.  A monitering device is implanted in your body to make sure you don't try and leave.  Monitered by Coast Guard.

You have rejected civilized society.  Create your own among your peers.
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Iain

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« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2005, 07:45:57 AM »
As I said to fallingblock once, the problem with transportation is that the colony becomes a country and then kicks the mother country around at sport. Since saying that we have won the Ashes, but the point remains.

Stand_Watie - again interesting points. I agree, were I to be advocating the death penalty I'd probably advocate your solution to the alleged racial problem with sentencing too.

Previous convictions are weighed up in sentencing here, no problem with that. There has been discussion of allowing the jury to know about them during the trial. I am bothered by that. Five previous convictions for burglary is not evidence that our defendant committed a sixth.
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