CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair

[Firethorn]

Source

(CNN) -- For Capt. Kamaljit Singh Kalsi, a doctor, and 2nd Lt. Tejdeep Singh Rattan, a dentist, this is a hill worth fighting for.

These two U.S. military recruits of the Sikh faith are challenging an Army order that they remove their turbans and cut their unshorn hair and beards when they report for active duty in July.

In the article, it hits on my initial thought - Lt. Col. Christopher C. Garver - The Army regulations which establish the standards of wear and appearance of the uniform and accommodating religious practices are in accordance with the Department of Defense Instruction on this subject," he said.

My thoughts are that I'd be proud to have Sikh in the military, however, they need to be willing to meet regulations - if they're unwilling to undergo the now traditional full shave, they should find another way to serve if they so wish.  That doesn't mean that the Army shouldn't make reasonable concessions as well.

Where would you draw the line?

[HankB]

Today's military is an ALL VOLUNTEER force.

It has rules.

If you don't like the rules, don't volunteer.

[jackdanson]

I don't agree with normal jobs having rules that you need to cut your hair/beard, but this is slightly different.  EVERYONE should be forced to do it in boot camp, once out of boot they should be more lenient though..

[41magsnub]

I don't agree with normal jobs having rules that you need to cut your hair/beard, but this is slightly different.  EVERYONE should be forced to do it in boot camp, once out of boot they should be more lenient though..

I disagree.  Short hair and more importantly no beard is critical for NBC warfare.  Beards and the Army issue gas masks do not go well together.  Beyond that, it is a discipline thing.

[Firethorn]

I don't agree with normal jobs having rules that you need to cut your hair/beard, but this is slightly different.

As 41magsnub mentions, there are practical reasons behind forbidding beards and requiring short hair.  Back when the exception was active (1980s), we had far more people in the military and could live with a 50% undeployable rate.  Today, if you're in a uniform you need to be deployable.  And that means being able to use a gas mask effectively, wear a helmet with your vest, etc...

Besides that, I think part of the problem is the military is in a very uniform concious stage - they want everybody to look the same, and a beard/turban wouldn't be part of being uniform.

Heck, the USAF tightened up and eliminated a lot of the distinctive markings that identified your unit/command on the uniform.  Used to be you could tell what Squadron I belonged to, now you're lucky to tell what career field I'm in.

[RoadKingLarry]

Back in the early '80 the Navy allowed beards and yes I could still seal a MK V gas mask and a Submairne EAB mask.

[Balog]

Some people have a skin condition that precludes them shaving frequently. They are allowed beards, they just have to keep them very close cropped. I met a corpsman like that once.

[Nitrogen]

So do Sikhs get to wear the Kirpan on airplanes?

[Scout26]

Can I become a Sikh and keep my High and Tight ??

[Jamisjockey]

Today's military is an ALL VOLUNTEER force.

It has rules.

If you don't like the rules, don't volunteer.

What he said.

There is no "line".  There are regulations in place.  Don't like it? Don't join.

[vaskidmark]

What he said.

There is no "line".  There are regulations in place.  Don't like it? Don't join.

But the RULE does not come just from DoD.  Look at http://atheism.about.com/library/decisions/religion/bl_l_GoldmanWeinberger.htm
or
 http://law.jrank.org/pages/12591/Goldman-v-Weinberger.html

(depending on which way you like your cases presented).

The .mil has been through this before, and these two should have known about the decision, as should the .mil folks who let them in.  The "The Army regulations which establish the standards of wear and appearance of the uniform and accommodating religious practices are in accordance with the Department of Defense Instruction on this subject" is a red herring/smokescreen. as Weinberger is still good law.

IMNSHO the Army ought to let them out of their contracts with full retirement benefits for fraudulently allowing them to enter service in the first place.  Additionally, some few heads ought to roll for getting the .mil into this mess in the first place.

stay safe.

skidmark

[41magsnub]

Back in the early '80 the Navy allowed beards and yes I could still seal a MK V gas mask and a Submairne EAB mask.

Try that with an M17 or M40 the army uses..  not so much

[41magsnub]

Some people have a skin condition that precludes them shaving frequently. They are allowed beards, they just have to keep them very close cropped. I met a corpsman like that once.

I knew several folks like that, they kept it down to stubble length and they suffered greatly when wearing a gas mask.  It will seal with stubble but it hurts.

[freedom lover]

I myself don't like the idea of Kosher and Halal MREs. If I was in the military I would feel much better if everyone ate the same Spam and shiz on toast that I would. The military exists to fight. When you join you have to be ready to give up some of your own freedom. Equality breeds comraderie, which makes people fight better.

I would hope that any Jews or Muslims in the military would be willing to sacrafice their food for victory. They already put their lives on the line. What's a little food compared to that?

[wingnutx]

Vegetarian MREs likely qualify as kosher.

Some of the best ones are veggie, too.

[Jamisjockey]

But the RULE does not come just from DoD.  Look at http://atheism.about.com/library/decisions/religion/bl_l_GoldmanWeinberger.htm
or
 http://law.jrank.org/pages/12591/Goldman-v-Weinberger.html

(depending on which way you like your cases presented).

The .mil has been through this before, and these two should have known about the decision, as should the .mil folks who let them in.  The "The Army regulations which establish the standards of wear and appearance of the uniform and accommodating religious practices are in accordance with the Department of Defense Instruction on this subject" is a red herring/smokescreen. as Weinberger is still good law.

IMNSHO the Army ought to let them out of their contracts with full retirement benefits for fraudulently allowing them to enter service in the first place.  Additionally, some few heads ought to roll for getting the .mil into this mess in the first place.

stay safe.

skidmark

You had me up until "full retirement benefits".  The recruiters need a smack and the Sikhs should be let out of their contract.  They've done nothing to deserve the same retirement as my father who retired after 21 years or many of our wounded vets on here who recieve retirement benefits.  Nothing.

[BobR]

IMO, in the end these guys will be let out of their contract "for the good of the government" and will not have to repay a dime to the government for their education.

Although, they could possibly become Public Health Service Officers, serve and practice their religious beliefs.

bob

[Uncle Bubba]

IMO, in the end these guys will be let out of their contract "for the good of the government" and will not have to repay a dime to the government for their education.

Although, they could possibly become Public Health Service Officers, serve and practice their religious beliefs.

bob

Sensible, that.

[Lennyjoe]

I agree with Jamis. Especially on the quote from skidmark on giving them full retirement, they did not earn like myself and others have.

[vaskidmark]

OK, I withdraw the retirement.  I agree it is not earned.  I added it as "punishment" for the stupidity that got them signed up to begin with.  I admit there was not much thought behind the concept.

I also agree with the idea of transferring them to Public Health Service - there they can still wear uniforms, keep their beards and turbans, and serve their country.

stay safe.

skidmark

[MicroBalrog]

They've done nothing to deserve the same retirement as my father who retired after 21 years or many of our wounded vets on here who recieve retirement benefits.  Nothing.

Haven't they already completed years of service? You don't exactly become a Captain or a Lieutenant overnight.

Religious people of various sorts have always been struggling with Western militaries over the right/privilege of adhering to their practices. They may be right or wrong (I'm sure the military has its reasons for opposing beards, and IANAL), but  I don't see why these people are seen here as having done something horrible. All they've done is sue.

[Dannyboy]

Haven't they already completed years of service? You don't exactly become a Captain or a Lieutenant overnight.

As an enlisted person, you can go in as up to an E-4 with a degree.  Since these guys are medical professionals, they go in as officers.  As for the one guy being a Captain, I'm guessing that it's the same thing as with enlisted.  The more education, the more rank.  He's clearly not served yet because he was in med school, so that's the only thing I can think of.

If anything, these guys should be let out of their contracts and go on with their lives having gotten a free education.  They should not be allowed to go on active duty without shaving and cutting their hair.  The military makes enough concessions as it is, being the guinea pig for American social experiments.

[Jamisjockey]

Haven't they already completed years of service? You don't exactly become a Captain or a Lieutenant overnight.

Religious people of various sorts have always been struggling with Western militaries over the right/privilege of adhering to their practices. They may be right or wrong (I'm sure the military has its reasons for opposing beards, and IANAL), but  I don't see why these people are seen here as having done something horrible. All they've done is sue.

They are entering service under a program I must admit I know little about.

The Sikh Coalition said Kalsi and Rattan had been assured that when they were recruited to join the Army's Health Professions Scholarship that their unshorn hair and turbans "would not be a problem."

"Both men were both recruited and commissioned -- with their Sikh articles of faith -- during their respective first years of medical and dental school (2001 and 2006) through the Army's Health Professions Scholarship Program.

"Both are concluding their training and are slated to begin active duty in July 2009. However, the U.S. Army is now disputing their ability to serve with their Sikh identity intact," the Sikh Coalition said in an April 14 letter addressed to Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

Unless they've got it in writing that they can keep the turbons and beards, they can stuff it. IMHO. 

[Dannyboy]

Unless they've got it in writing that they can keep the turbons and beards, they can stuff it. IMHO. 

It sounds like there was some serious miscommunication, or a complete lack thereof.  It looks like these 2 guys thought they would be allowed to keep the fuzz and the Army thought they knew they'd have to lose it and nobody bothered to clarify either way.

[Jamisjockey]

It sounds like there was some serious miscommunication, or a complete lack thereof.  It looks like these 2 guys thought they would be allowed to keep the fuzz and the Army thought they knew they'd have to lose it and nobody bothered to clarify either way.

The real question will be, what was in the contract.