Shifty yourself. Did you ever consider I had better things to do, and just quit reading the thread before you asked the question?
You haven't understood what I've tried to say thus far, so I shouldn't bother. But to repeat myself, I only approve of torture in cases where the "detainee" is essentially holding a gun to someone's head. Given that, if you're confronting someone with a gun to the head of an innocent person, what would you consider out of bounds? If, in some bizarre way, you could take down the bad guy by inserting a red hot poker into a major orifice, zapping his man-parts with voltage and chopping off his ears, while having rats gnaw off his face, would you do so?
Tell me how far you'd go to stop someone from killing an innocent person, and that's probably how far I'd go, too.