Author Topic: “If I had my way, I’d destroy all the mosques and spread the whores around..."  (Read 29308 times)

roo_ster

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I thought that line was just too danged funny.




http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/world/middleeast/19baghdad.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print

Secure Enough to Sin, Baghdad Revisits Old Ways
By ROD NORDLAND

BAGHDAD — Vice is making a comeback in this city once famous for 1,001 varieties of it.

Gone, for the most part, are nighttime curfews, religious extremists and prowling kidnappers. So, inevitably, some people are turning to illicit pleasures, or at least slightly dubious ones.

Nightclubs have reopened, and in many of them, prostitutes troll for clients. Liquor stores, once shut down by fundamentalist militiamen, have proliferated; on one block of busy Saddoun Street, there are more than 10 of them.

Abu Nawas Park, previously deserted for fear of suicide bombers seeking vulnerable crowds, has now become a place for assignations between young people so inclined. It is not that there are hiding places in the park, where trees are pretty sparse; the couples just pretend they cannot be seen, and passers-by go along with the pretense.

It is a long way from Sodom and Gomorrah, but perhaps part way back to the old Baghdad. The Baathists who ruled here from the 1960s until the American invasion in 2003 were secular, and more than a little sinful. Baghdad under Saddam Hussein was a pretty lively place, with street cafes open until 2 or 3 a.m., and prostitutes plying their trade even in the bowling alley of Al Rashid Hotel.

“Everything is going back to its natural way,” said Ahmed Assadee, a screenwriter who works on a soap opera.

Men gather in cafes to smoke a hookah and gamble on dice and domino games. On weekends, the Mustansiriya Coffee Shop’s back room is crammed with low bleachers set up around a clandestine cockfighting ring. On one recent day, the 100 or so spectators were raucous while watching the bloody spectacle, but they placed their bets discreetly.

Gambling, after all, is illegal.

Walid Brahim, 25, a bomb disposal expert with the Iraqi Army, and his brother Farat, 20, an electrician, recently sat side by side at a table in the Nights of Abu Musa bar, on an alley off Saddoun Street, working their way through a bucket of ice and a bottle of Mr. Chavez Whiskey, an Iraqi-made hooch.

“This is great,” Walid Brahim said. “We used to buy alcohol and just drink secretly in our house.”

The bar is men-only, as pretty much all respectable taverns are, but the brothers look forward to an even brighter future.

“If this security continues,” Farat Brahim said, “within a year all the waiters will be girls.”

The local police, weary of years of dodging assassins and cleaning up after car bombings, are blasé about a little vice.

“Today we are dealing with more normal things. All the world is facing such problems,” said Col. Abdel Jaber Qassim Sadir, assistant police chief in Karada, a central Baghdad neighborhood.

“Prostitution, this kind of behavior cannot be stopped,” Colonel Sadir said. “It’s very hard to find it in public; it goes on in secret, isolated places.”

Actually, not so secret. There are a half-dozen night spots in Karada now where the entry fee is $50. With $150 a week considered a good wage, customers would not pay that much merely for the privilege of drinking.

At the Ahalan Wasahalan Club on Al Nidhal Street one recent night, the owner, Tiba Jamal, was holding court, as she usually does, on the dais at the front of a room with a mostly empty dance floor and lots of tables.

Ms. Jamal calls herself the Sheikha, or a female sheik, an honorific title she has apparently adopted. She dresses in a head-to-toe, skin-tight black chador, and she is adorned with several pounds of solid gold bracelets, pendants, necklaces, earrings and rings, her response to the financial crisis.

The female workers in the nightclub wore rather less clothing, but nothing that would be considered risqué on a street in Europe — in August. At one point in the evening they outnumbered the men, as they sat in a big group until being summoned to one of the men’s tables.

“It’s nice to see people having fun again,” Ms. Jamal said.

One regular customer said, “You can have any of those girls to spend the night with you later, only $100.” First, though, patrons are expected to spend a few hours buying $20 beers or even more costly whiskey.

A young woman who said she was 28 but looked 18 sat smoking, and downing soft drinks while her “date” drank Scotch. A university student, she would give her name only as Baida, but she was frank about her nighttime profession. Had something happened to force her into this? “No,” she said. “I go out with men so I can get money.” To support her family? She seemed stunned by the question. “No, for myself.”

One police detective said he would not dream of enforcing the law against prostitutes. “They’re the best sources we have,” said the detective, whose name is being withheld for his safety. “They know everything about JAM and Al Qaeda members,” he said, using the acronym for Jaish al-Mahdi or Mahdi Army, a *expletive deleted*it militia.

The detective added that the only problem his men had was that neighbors got the wrong idea when detectives visited the houses where prostitutes were known to live. They really do just want to talk, he said.

“If I had my way, I’d destroy all the mosques and spread the whores around a little more,” the detective said. “At least they’re not sectarian.”


Others are uncomfortable with the prostitutes’ presence.

“It is terrible to see prostitution increased like this,” said Hanaa Edwar, secretary general of the Iraqi human rights group Al-Amal. “These are women from displaced families, poor people, people who have to sell themselves to get money for their families and children.”

She was incensed after she raised the subject before the Iraqi Parliament. “They were shocked and didn’t agree to open discussion on this issue,” she said. The shock, she said, was that she dared to mention the problem.

Al Amal commissioned a report last year that surveyed prostitutes working on the streets in Baghdad. One was a 15-year-old girl who had been thrown out of school for dressing inappropriately, then took to prostitution, the report said. Another was an 18-year-old forced to become the second wife of an older man; she ran away and had no other way to support herself. One girl was 12.

Certainly, vice often has an ugly side. During a recent undercover operation in Karada aimed at a human trafficking ring, a pimp offered a plainclothes officer an opportunity to buy a young woman to take to Syria, according to a detective, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the sting.

Drug abuse, at least, is one problem that has not shown up much, or has stayed well underground, the police say. “The only problems we see are some illegal pills occasionally,” Colonel Sadir said.

Not surprisingly, the Baghdadis’ drug of choice is Valium, the colonel said.

Most people have had enough excitement these past six years just staying home.


Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

seeker_two

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...working their way through a bucket of ice and a bottle of Mr. Chavez Whiskey, an Iraqi-made hooch.

Well....we know where Hugo's getting the extra revenue....  :laugh:
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

freedom lover

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Awesome article. Alot of money can be made off vice.

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working their way through a bucket of ice and a bottle of Mr. Chavez Whiskey

lol.

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Baghdad under Saddam Hussein was a pretty lively place, with street cafes open until 2 or 3 a.m., and prostitutes plying their trade even in the bowling alley of Al Rashid Hotel.

That is too cool. Every town in America should have a brothel. It would help the economy. I feel bad when I read the letters in the paper from older men who don't get enough sex. That should never have to be a problem.




vaskidmark

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Do you remember the brothel that the IRS seized and ran into bankruptcy?  Or the "club" they took over in DC that was raided by the local tax guys for failure to pay city taxes?

If there are going to be brothels in every town, we need (for a variety of reasons) to make sure it is not based on government stimulus.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Jamisjockey

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Do you remember the brothel that the IRS seized and ran into bankruptcy?  Or the "club" they took over in DC that was raided by the local tax guys for failure to pay city taxes?

If there are going to be brothels in every town, we need (for a variety of reasons) to make sure it is not based on government stimulus.

stay safe.

skidmark

When the fed.gov is stimulated, we all get boned.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Perd Hapley

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Every town in America should have a brothel. It would help the economy. I feel bad when I read the letters in the paper from older men who don't get enough sex. That should never have to be a problem.

Firstly, where is this town where old men write letters to the editor about that? 

Secondly, how would brothels help our economy? 

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seeker_two

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When the fed.gov is stimulated, we all get boned.

QFT!.....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

BryanP

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Secondly, how would brothels help our economy? 

Sales tax.  To quote George Carlin, "Selling is legal.  !@#$ing is legal.  Why isn't selling !@#$ing legal?"
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Jamisjockey

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Firstly, where is this town where old men write letters to the editor about that? 

Secondly, how would brothels help our economy? 





If brothels were legal.....it'd be just about the only thing made in America and not outsourced overseas left.....
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

mtnbkr

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Nah, they'd import the whores.

Chris

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If there are going to be brothels in every town, we need (for a variety of reasons) to make sure it is not based on government stimulus.

I never mentioned government stimulus.

Firstly, where is this town where old men write letters to the editor about that? 

Secondly, how would brothels help our economy?

They usually write them to advice columnists. They are probably in every town. Not everyone's wife loves them like I think your wife does you and not every postmenopausal woman is willing to give their husband the affection and sex they need. There is a market.

To answer your second question, jobs. Sex workers have to eat, clothe themselves, go to the doctor, get around, live somewhere, and buy clear heels just like everyone else. That would help the local economy.

vaskidmark

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I never said you said anything about brothels being based on government stimulus.  I merely observed that any brothel should not be based on government stimulus.  Brothels should be stimulating in and of their own right - adding any government stimulus would be so wrong on so many levels.  (Although it would reduce the risks of pregnancy and STDs.)

I still fear the financial implications of a government-stimulated brothel.  Not only is it highly likely to go bankrupt (past history), it is liely to run afoul of other government agencies (again, past history).  While phrases such as "flat on its back" and "screwed" are good regarding brothels, they are not so good regarding the running of same.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Perd Hapley

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To answer your second question, jobs. Sex workers have to eat, clothe themselves, go to the doctor, get around, live somewhere, and buy clear heels just like everyone else. That would help the local economy.

I'm wondering if that's not akin to the broken window fallacy.  It's a question of where the money is going now, versus diverting it into brothels.  Or where else could the money be directed if, instead of a brothel, you opened some other kind of business?  But the fact that a new business is moving into town does not prosperity make.  For the most part, you'd think the brothel would just absorb the money that is currently being spent at McDonalds, or the video store, or the gun store, or the hardware store, or the auto parts store, or wherever these lonely old men spend their money.  And wherever the young men spend their money.  Yeah, you'd have more prostitutes in town to buy clothes and medical services, etc, but how many jobs will be lost at the aforementioned businesses? 

And you can figure on a higher divorce rate, of course.  Ergo, family disruption, drug abuse, crime.  Money wasted on food, housing, utilities, that could be spent more efficiently by whole families living together.  So the money that could have been used for other purposes is squandered by inefficient use of resources.  You may be in for some unintended consequences. 


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Headless Thompson Gunner

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"Assignations"???

<giggle>

Regolith

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I'm wondering if that's not akin to the broken window fallacy.  It's a question of where the money is going now, versus diverting it into brothels.  Or where else could the money be directed if, instead of a brothel, you opened some other kind of business?  But the fact that a new business is moving into town does not prosperity make.  For the most part, you'd think the brothel would just absorb the money that is currently being spent at McDonalds, or the video store, or the gun store, or the hardware store, or the auto parts store, or wherever these lonely old men spend their money.  And wherever the young men spend their money.  Yeah, you'd have more prostitutes in town to buy clothes and medical services, etc, but how many jobs will be lost at the aforementioned businesses? 

And you can figure on a higher divorce rate, of course.  Ergo, family disruption, drug abuse, crime.  Money wasted on food, housing, utilities, that could be spent more efficiently by whole families living together.  So the money that could have been used for other purposes is squandered by inefficient use of resources.  You may be in for some unintended consequences. 


I used to live in a town that has a state-licensed brothel.  None of those problems you mention have been a problem there.  If anything, the brothel attracts more business to the town (usually from truck drivers who usually wouldn't otherwise stop for the night).  It's probably helped other businesses stay in business.  And as far as I know, there has never been any crime that has been connected in any way to the brothel. 
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MicroBalrog

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So the money that could have been used for other purposes is squandered by inefficient use of resources.

How is it an inefficient use of resources?

If it is my goal to get sexual satisfaction, then it seems that paying a prostitute is a more efficient method of doing so than going to the video store. Even if it an 'adult video' type of store.

I think the most important argument for legalization here is protecting the prostitutes, as a matter of fact. I don't know about America, but in Israel - and some other countries  - there is the problem of people 'hiring' foreign women to work as prostitutes, and then holding them to work as slaves or stealing part of their pay. Since the brothels are illegal anyways, nobody really gives a flying fart for what happens to the women - sort of how people in the illegal drug industry lace their products.
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seeker_two

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Morally, I'm against it.....

Constitutionally, I don't see how it can be illegal....


Confusing, ain't it?.....  =|
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

MicroBalrog

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Well, isn't it the individual states that prohibit/regulate prostitution, rather than FedGov? I do believe it is legal in some counties of Nevada (not LV itself though).
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Perd Hapley

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How is it an inefficient use of resources?

Maybe try reading next time, instead of just emoting.

I was, quite clearly, talking about a family using two houses/apartments, and having two budgets for food and utilities, because Mom and Dad are divorced and live separately.  That is the inefficiency to which I referred.


Regolith,

I wasn't talking about crime related to the brothel.  I was talking about crime rates increasing as an indirect consequence of family problems and poverty.

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MicroBalrog

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If two people feel that they don't belong together for whatever reason, then them living separately is a perfectly efficient use of their resources.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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MicroBalrog

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Also, is there any proof of a causal relationship between divorce rates and prostitution? Or is that also a form of 'emoting'?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Firethorn

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I'm wondering if that's not akin to the broken window fallacy.  It's a question of where the money is going now, versus diverting it into brothels.

In general, more business is more business.  As you later note, the prostitutes themselves will spend money, and I'd say that would include taxes and all that.

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And you can figure on a higher divorce rate, of course.

You seem to take this as a given.  I think I'd have to disagree.  Men AND women both manage to cheat quite effectively, fall out and get divorces, or even just live seperately, all the time without legal prostitution.

All this doesn't take into account that just like the drug market, illegal prostitution happens NOW, and legalizing it will also have the effect of bringing it out into the open, which should increase safety and quality, not to mention increase revenues as they'll start paying taxes/fees.

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I wasn't talking about crime related to the brothel.  I was talking about crime rates increasing as an indirect consequence of family problems and poverty.

I think the feelings here are that you've inadequately proven that legal prostitution/brothels will increase divorce, family problems, ergo poverty.

How about the opposite approach - with rules about condom usage, disease controls, etc...  Wouldn't we tend to SAVE money by reducing the spread of STDs?

I think the most important argument for legalization here is protecting the prostitutes, as a matter of fact. I don't know about America, but in Israel - and some other countries  - there is the problem of people 'hiring' foreign women to work as prostitutes, and then holding them to work as slaves or stealing part of their pay. Since the brothels are illegal anyways, nobody really gives a flying fart for what happens to the women - sort of how people in the illegal drug industry lace their products.

The way I look at it.  And yes, it happens in the USA as well.  There was a big case of women paying coyotes to get them across the border, where they were expecting to work sewing jobs and such only to find out that the coyotes were essentially enslaving them and forcing them to work as prostitutes to field workers and such.  Condom usage wasn't.

Prostitution being legal wouldn't necessarily solve the problem, but I think it would have helped.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 09:51:42 AM by Firethorn »

Perd Hapley

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In general, more business is more business. 

But isn't that precisely what the broken window is all about?  You think there is more business, because you're seeing economic activity you haven't seen before.  But is it an increase in prosperity, or just a re-arrangement of deck chairs?

Prosperity increases when resources are used more efficiently, not just because there are "more jobs" or because people seem to be spending money you think they weren't spending before.  The money spent by the prostitutes wouldn't be money coming into the economy.  It would just be money that is re-routed from wherever the men were spending it previously.


And, yes, I of course take it as a given as a matter of our experience as a society that marital infidelity increases divorce rates. 

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All this doesn't take into account that just like the drug market, illegal prostitution happens NOW, and legalizing it will also have the effect of bringing it out into the open, which should increase safety and quality, not to mention increase revenues as they'll start paying taxes/fees.

Which also minimizes any positive effects of legalization.

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Nick1911

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And, yes, I of course take it as a given as a matter of our experience as a society that marital infidelity increases divorce rates. 

How does legalizing brothels increase marital infidelity?

MicroBalrog

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And, yes, I of course take it as a given as a matter of our experience as a society that marital infidelity increases divorce rates.

Yes, but would legalized prostitution necessarily bring increased marital infidelity? Aren't there lots of countries where prostitution is legal already?

The Netherlands, New Zealand and Germany have vastly lower divorce rates than the United States, yet prostitution is legal and widespread in these countries.
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