Author Topic: My New Political Beliefs  (Read 5001 times)

freedom lover

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My New Political Beliefs
« on: May 01, 2009, 05:13:20 PM »
The nice thing about APS is that it sometimes makes one ponder things. It made me take an hour (my mind was racing) to figure out what I believe and write it down. My former ideas were conflicted, hypocritical, and slightly juvenile. I wonder if I always knew what I will now post all along. Here goes.

Humans are savage beasts. To keep order in a society violence must be controlled, the government must punish crime, it must have power. If it has too much power it will inevitably hurt the people (I think of all governments as "evil".) Therefore it needs to have internal laws to regulate it, a constitution and checks and balances. If a such a government fulfills its purpose, why do the people need freedom? I am a humanist agnostic. I do do not believe in the ideas of rights or natural laws. All governments, even seemingly perfect ones, eventually become bloated and corrupt. People need freedom so they can protect themselves against the slide from corruption to tyranny. They need freedom to change the government, whether by voting or by violence.

There must be a balance. The country that kept that balance the longest is the United States. I must therefore conclude that the Founders had a good idea. By extension many of the beliefs from my old idealist days when I took the name freedom lover were correct. I know that others too love their own freedom.

It felt damn good to finally figure that out. I hope you guys don't think I'm some kind of nut. Wooeee.  =D Any questions?

Perd Hapley

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2009, 05:15:43 PM »
And your former ideas were? 
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
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freedom lover

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2009, 05:17:33 PM »
Believe me, you don't want to know.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2009, 05:28:30 PM »
You might reexamine your feelings on natural rights, they are not a religious concept per se but are grounded in Enlightenment humanism.

If the most basic of rights are not inherent in merely being human from where do they then derive and what, ethically or morally, determines which freedoms, in detail, should be protected?

Your statement as written lacks precision and could easily be used to justify infringing on some freedoms you may personally believe vital.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2009, 05:32:49 PM »
I think your statement reveals that you do believe in rights of some kind. 
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

Nightfall

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2009, 05:33:47 PM »
Take a couple philosophy classes at college, freedom lover.  =)
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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2009, 05:35:49 PM »
I think your statement reveals that you do believe in rights of some kind. 

I wonder whether you are right or wrong. I'm happy that I figured something out. It feels good.  =)

Take a couple philosophy classes at college, freedom lover.  =)

Sounds like a good idea. I'll also keep thinking and read some more.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 05:41:06 PM by freedom lover »

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2009, 05:44:12 PM »
and be prepared for your beliefs to morph.  mine do constantly
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

freedom lover

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2009, 05:47:23 PM »
and be prepared for your beliefs to morph.  mine do constantly

The same thing has happened to me over the years too. My God. To think how I have changed.

Standing Wolf

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2009, 06:37:45 PM »
Quote
Humans are savage beasts.

A few of us are, indeed. Criminal law is, or at least, ought to be written to entitle government to contend with that small percentage. Criminal law is, or at least, ought to be irrelevant to the vast majority of us.

Rights exist completely independently of the behavior of criminals and actions of government.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2009, 06:49:18 PM »
A few of us are, indeed. Criminal law is, or at least, ought to be written to entitle government to contend with that small percentage. Criminal law is, or at least, ought to be irrelevant to the vast majority of us.

Rights exist completely independently of the behavior of criminals and actions of government.

This.
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Fjolnirsson

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2009, 07:53:00 PM »


Rights exist completely independently of the behavior of criminals and actions of government.

Standing Wolf, are you feeling ok? You're repeating yourself.
Hi.

Jeff B.

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2009, 10:34:52 PM »
It's good to read, listen, debate, think and then begin anew.  As a young person, you are starting your journey into life.  You may not (probably won't) feel the same in say ten or fifteen years.  There are any number of forces that can impact and change you views.  I speak from at least the experience of changing my own thoughts regarding government, its role in our lives and personal responsibility.

I guess I'd tell you to always keep the thought in the back of your mind that "you reserve the right to change your mind"... :)

Jeff B.
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Jocassee

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2009, 10:47:20 PM »
Quote
I am a humanist agnostic.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

I reiterate my advice, FL...get thee too a good liberal arts college and saturate thyself in philosophy, history, and speech. Your mind will grow in leaps and bounds.

Keep developing. As the man once said, if you haven't discarded or adopted a major position in the last year, you're either dead or very stupid.
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grampster

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2009, 10:48:55 PM »
 reposted later
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 07:46:58 PM by grampster »
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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2009, 11:12:55 PM »
Power only respects greater power.

Which is why citizens must be armed, so as to present a threat to gov't if gov't gets out of line.
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seeker_two

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2009, 11:15:11 AM »
Power only respects greater power.

Which is why citizens must be armed, so as to present a threat to gov't if gov't gets out of line.

The gun is good.....the politician is evil......

....that fits as well as the original quote.....since both are in the business of screwing...  =D
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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2009, 02:42:56 AM »
I do not think that word means what you think it means.

I reiterate my advice, FL...get thee too a good liberal arts college and saturate thyself in philosophy, history, and speech. Your mind will grow in leaps and bounds.

Keep developing. As the man once said, if you haven't discarded or adopted a major position in the last year, you're either dead or very stupid.

Or just goto the library and read up on the subject. Amazing what you can learn for free if you really want to.
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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2009, 05:15:48 AM »
As the man once said, if you haven't discarded or adopted a major position in the last year, you're either dead or very stupid.

I wish more people took this to heart!
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Perd Hapley

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2009, 05:18:24 AM »
I can't help it if my major positions happen to be correct. 
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
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Hawkmoon

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2009, 02:25:29 PM »
No questions, but your new-found enlightenment contains a bit of a logical disconnect:

Humans are savage beasts. To keep order in a society violence must be controlled, the government must punish crime, it must have power. If it has too much power it will inevitably hurt the people (I think of all governments as "evil".) Therefore it needs to have internal laws to regulate it, a constitution and checks and balances. If a such a government fulfills its purpose, why do the people need freedom? I am a humanist agnostic. I do do not believe in the ideas of rights or natural laws. All governments, even seemingly perfect ones, eventually become bloated and corrupt. People need freedom so they can protect themselves against the slide from corruption to tyranny. They need freedom to change the government, whether by voting or by violence.

There must be a balance. The country that kept that balance the longest is the United States. I must therefore conclude that the Founders had a good idea. By extension many of the beliefs from my old idealist days when I took the name freedom lover were correct. I know that others too love their own freedom.

You don't accept the concept of rights or natural laws, yet you accept that the Founding Fathers had a good idea. Are you aware that the Bill of Rights was written with the firm belief by the Founders that Man does enjoy certain "unalienable" [natural, God-given] rights?
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Lee

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2009, 04:54:16 PM »
Good for you.  Don't stop - Lifelong re-evaluation is a good thing.

grampster

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2009, 07:46:18 PM »
I added a bunch of thoughts to my post #14, which I deleted.


Think about this for awhile:

Barak Obama believes that the Constitution is wrong.  He is offended by the notion that it is a limiting document rather than a granting document.  He does not believe in the rule of law.  He believes that laws should be manipulated to favor selected groups in the interest of economic justice rather than everyone being held to a unbiased set of laws.  He has said that it would be a good idea to appoint a SC justice who is not a lawyer or a judge; but one that has experienced the vagaries of our society as some sort of mythical "minority".  I would suggest an agnostic, 17 year old, single female mom, who is of mixed blood, a lesbian, who has multiple disabilities, a drug addiction, who just can't seem to quit smoking and who weighs about 235 lbs and is 4'10".

Spend some time researching his comments regarding the above that he has made over the last 15 years.  It should scare the crap out of you.  The deeper problem is that he has a majority congress that either believes as he does or is afraid to oppose him or who does not understand or even know how far left he is.  Worse yet, he and his party also have a sympathetic main stream media.  Thank God for the internet and talk radio.  You may not agree with some of the commentator's styles and or bombast, but at least they are in loud and earnest opposition to the direction we are being pushed as a nation.
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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2009, 01:14:28 AM »
Updating your opinions as you gain more information and experience is always a good idea. 

I will however disagree on your principle that humans are savage beasts.  I will instead put forth the notion that humans must choose to be savages.  Just as they can equally choose to be rational.   Folks have debated nature vs nurture for years.   I personally think nature gives a disposition and a starting point, one's environment greatly helps shape a person, and a good bit left over goes to free will.  To claim people are nothing more than savages or even naturally tended towards being savages I think cops out of personal responsibility.  A person can have a messed up set of genes or a messed up developmental environment, but they are still responsible and accountable for their own actions.  Humans are first and foremost, thinking creatures.  Barring actual mental disorders,  they can opt out of morality, rationality or civility, but they do so of their own accord.


While I agree governments and police have a place in detering and punishing crime, this is entirely secondary to personal responsibility.  A person's safety is primarily in their own hands.   The police have no legal or moral responsibility to protect any specific person.  Their responsibility is strictly limited to the "community" as a notion, or society in whole.  It is a contradiction to say police are solely responsible for dealing with crime but they have no responsibility for protecting any specific person.  They physically cannot protect every person at all times, even if they or anyone else wanted to.  This reality is what it is and can't be changed.  In light of this,  it is insanity to claim that the government has a monopoly on dealing with crime.  Any person that is rational must make their own preperations as they can. 

The question of why do people need freedom is simple.  They don't need it, because they are born with it and these freedoms become void only in death.  All government is based on the consent of the governed.   The proper question is how much freedom should be delegated to government to fulfill the roles we see fit to have them perform.  The answer we have is the Constitution.  Even a cursory reading of the Constitution explains that only specific tasks are within the government's realm.  Everything else is retained by the states, or by the people themselves.

You could be perfectly capable of believing that that gravity does not exist.  That is your right to believe the irrational.  It is equally rational to deny gravity as to believe that rights or natural laws do not exist.  You may wish that these do not exist, but like gravity, they exist regardless of one's wishes.

People do not need freedom in order to change a government.  They must merely withdraw their consent.  Through the ballot box, popular dissent, or the barrel of the rifle.  Most often governments are changed because the previous government had usurped enough freedoms that it would not be tolerated. 

I do believe you may be operating under the believe that someone hands out rights.  Whether by some deity, some government, whomever.  Rights are not handed out at all.  They are created out of the consciousness and rationality of the human mind.  They can not be destroyed, only transferred by consent or inaction. 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 01:45:18 AM by RevDisk »
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makattak

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Re: My New Political Beliefs
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2009, 10:03:02 AM »
While many of the things Rev has said was good, I think he's fundamentally wrong about the nature of humanity.

He says they are not savage beast but can choose to be rational. In this he is correct, however "savage" or "rational" are not the only choices.

Human beings are predisposed to evil. Whether "savage" or "rational" is irrelevant. As our founding fathers realized, men cannot be trusted:

Quote
If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. (Federalist #51)

Rev is correct that personal responsibility should be the primary means of enforcement. He misses (as do you) the secondary enforcement upon men: society and culture. Governments and laws should only be needed for egregious breaches of the social compact: e.g. theft, murder, slander.

Society should enforce other mores in order to support the social contract. There should be things that are not accepted by society, even if the law is silent on the matter. One of the signs of a decaying culture is an increase in laws to prevent actions that before were enforced through mere cultural disapprobation. Once the culture can no longer enforce its mores without the threat of force of arms (police) it has begun a decline into the annals of history.

Freedom is good. Government CAN BE good. In general, it is a tolerable evil. However it is a necessary one.

Add to this the fact that man is a political animal. But, I will avoid getting into Aristotle in this post.
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So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought