Author Topic: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent  (Read 8913 times)

zahc

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http://www.chicagotribune.com/technology/chi-ap-wi-gps-police,0,5867383.story

I don't understand how it's legal to attach something to a person's personal property, legally, when they are not a suspect and a warrent has not been obtained. How is that not a search or a seizure? And even if it's not, any reasonable person would agree that it violates a person's right to be secure in their persons, papers, things, and effects. Have we stopped even pretending that we have a bill of rights?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2009, 01:15:04 AM »
i think its the reasonable expectation of privacy thing
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2009, 01:35:42 AM »
Sorry, CS Daddy, I'm gonna have to be a hero of the revolution on this one. 
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French G.

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2009, 02:33:49 AM »
i think its the reasonable expectation of privacy thing

I'd reasonably expect the cops keep their GPS planting fingers off my personal property without a warrant. Reasonable expectation thing would be not being able to sue the cops because they watch (visually)you everyday when you drive to work. What else can we attach to cars without warrrant? Blood alcohol interlocks? Disabling devices?(Oh wait, we've already got Northstar on the police speed dial.) If they can touch my car to attach the GPS why not just pop the trunk lock to make sure everything is okay in there.

Can we remotely monitor home thermostats? Yep. Can we monitor your electricity use to see if you are killing too many dinosaurs or growing pot in the basement? Doing that too. Passive thermal scan people's homes to find the pot man? Check. Monitor the internet and your credit cards to make sure you don't do anything naughty. Done for years.

Where do we draw the privacy line in the age of technology?  Maybe cameras in the bedroom to make sure we keep it legal since states like ours still have laws on the books regarding what is legal between consenting adults.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2009, 02:45:14 AM »
it even bugs me.  but if i remember right the concept is that you have no reasonable expectation of privacy on the public roads. i think an interesting angle might crop up if someone was driving his vehicle on a large private property where in fact they could expect privacy. that might get a court check
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2009, 03:02:28 AM »
I get the notion that stalkers are gonna love this - aside from the one that's going to jail, that is. This might mean that it's perfectly legal to track the comings and goings of whoever you choose. Instead of following the object of your infatuation around 24/7, just put a GPS tracker on their car and harass 'em when you feel like it.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2009, 06:11:04 AM »
i think its the reasonable expectation of privacy thing

I'm going out on a limb here and say that this whole GPS thing may be constitutional. But it probably should be prohibited (i.e., that states should pass laws limiting the practice).

No, you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy while you're out in the street. Would you be okay if someone assigned a police officer to shadow you?
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BryanP

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2009, 06:50:38 AM »
Based on this, if I had a stalking issue I think I'd be in the market for one of these:

http://www.tayx.co.uk/gmt04-pocket-gps-jammer.html

Perhaps if we were to all start attaching GPS devices to the cars of our favorite politicians and tracking their movements they might get the message?
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CNYCacher

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2009, 08:46:29 AM »
The city of Syracuse, NY has certain patrol cars (I think 5 of them) with license-plate-scanning cameras.  I am told the system picks up and scans every license plate in sight as the patrol car moves down the road.  Oncoming traffic, parked vehicles on both sides of the street and driveways all get scanned.  The system alerts the officer with a siren-type sound when a match is found against a daily-updated list of stolen vehicles and expired or suspended registrations.

The scary part is that all the scans are recorded, not just the offenders, and they are all stored with GPS-based location and time data.  If your car has ever been close to one of these special patrol cars, even just passing it, or been parked somewhere in the city when one went by, SPD knows about it.  They can type your plate into the computer and get dates and times and locations that you were "seen".

The even scarier part of it is that the city is attempting to place these same cameras on as many intersections as they can.
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roo_ster

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2009, 09:00:14 AM »
The city of Syracuse, NY has certain patrol cars (I think 5 of them) with license-plate-scanning cameras.  I am told the system picks up and scans every license plate in sight as the patrol car moves down the road.  Oncoming traffic, parked vehicles on both sides of the street and driveways all get scanned.  The system alerts the officer with a siren-type sound when a match is found against a daily-updated list of stolen vehicles and expired or suspended registrations.

The scary part is that all the scans are recorded, not just the offenders, and they are all stored with GPS-based location and time data.  If your car has ever been close to one of these special patrol cars, even just passing it, or been parked somewhere in the city when one went by, SPD knows about it.  They can type your plate into the computer and get dates and times and locations that you were "seen".

The even scarier part of it is that the city is attempting to place these same cameras on as many intersections as they can.

One bit of legislation I would try to pass if I were ever elected to the Texas state legislature would be "multi-year vehicle licensing with external anonymity."

You'd have the option of registering your vehicle for multiple years at a time instead of having to do it annually.

Also, I would make it anonymous outside of the tax office (where transaction takes place, ID/title/insurance is checked).  The annual / renewal stickers already are placed inside the windshield so they don't get stolen off the exposed license plate.  That would be the actual "vehicle license."  The external plate would just say "Texas" and would not have identifying characteristics.

Learning just which auto it was would be akin to a search requiring PC & such and would be accomplished by running the VIN.
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roo_ster

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2009, 09:24:39 AM »
The scary part is that all the scans are recorded, not just the offenders, and they are all stored with GPS-based location and time data.  If your car has ever been close to one of these special patrol cars, even just passing it, or been parked somewhere in the city when one went by, SPD knows about it.  They can type your plate into the computer and get dates and times and locations that you were "seen".

That's just a memory aid.  If a cop happens to see you when you're out in public, and remembers or records where you were at what time, big deal. 

They cross a line, I think, when they covertly attach something to your vehicle, with no warrant, so that you are broadcasting your location wherever you go. 
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mfree

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2009, 09:25:03 AM »
I'd be so boring to watch, right up until sunday when I confuse the heck out of 'em.

I'm rarely going anywhere but work or home during the week.... but sunday, provided all the housework is done, if there's nothing to keep my attention at home then by gum I'm out for my sunday drive.

My sunday drives are totally aimless affairs done without a map and running anywhere from an hour to 5+, and usually ending up as a big circle or two with a loop-de-loop and a few squiggles thrown in. The longest one so far was ~300 miles... once I hit a gravel road in Kentucky I figured it was time to head back to Knoxville.

"unreasonable search and seizure" unfortunately didn't cover "unreasonable attachment". Although, if there are no property marking on the GPS tag, the state should have an "abandoned property" law somewhere in the books, and getting that tag *back* might pose a problem for the police.  

El Tejon

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2009, 09:41:41 AM »
What would happen if YOU attached a GPS device to a police car without a warrant? =D
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jackdanson

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2009, 09:52:28 AM »
Quote
Although, if there are no property marking on the GPS tag, the state should have an "abandoned property" law somewhere in the books, and getting that tag *back* might pose a problem for the police.  


If I found one on my car it would be hard to get back because it would be at the bottom of the missouri river.... "hmmm it looks like his car is floating down the river now... must have taken a ferry to new orleans!!"


So, I wonder what would happen if I secretly attached some of these to police cars?  I'm sure they would be thrilled.

Quote
I get the notion that stalkers are gonna love this - aside from the one that's going to jail, that is. This might mean that it's perfectly legal to track the comings and goings of whoever you choose. Instead of following the object of your infatuation around 24/7, just put a GPS tracker on their car and harass 'em when you feel like it.


Woohoo, I've always wondered where that cute girl at starbucks lives...  ::puts on trench coat and runs to white panel van::

Viking

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2009, 09:57:22 AM »
Would it be illegal/unethical to remove this transmitter and attach it to the nearest patrol car instead? Or perhaps try to get it onto an airplane? :angel:
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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2009, 09:57:54 AM »
With zero legal expertise on the subject, I wonder if they're somehow really, really stretching the concept of implied legality of tracking you via your cell phone? You can turn the user functional GPS off in your phone, but not the "911 GPS" (at least not without popping the battery or SIM). If they can install a GPS on your vehicle so they can tax you by the mile, as some states are looking at doing, then tracking you for other purposes is starting to become an analog of the cell phone example.

I also recall seeing some advertisement for a small GPS tracker the public can buy with the ad implying "track your kids when they take dad's car out" or some such as a "legal" use for something that could easily be used illegally.

For the record, I do not like this.
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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2009, 10:01:54 AM »
Would it be illegal/unethical to remove this transmitter and attach it to the nearest patrol car instead? Or perhaps try to get it onto an airplane? :angel:

Sad thing is that it's probably illegal to place it on a patrol car....tampering with an offical vehicle or some other such thing. 
This is a seriously disturbing one.  While you have no expectation of privacy in public, my vehicle is private property and should be respected as such by the government. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2009, 10:08:04 AM »
Just attach the GPS to a delivery truck or long haul 18 wheeler.  :)

I am curious.  In the article it says the cops got a warrant to place the GPS on the car of the suspect after a woman complained about the stalking.  They did all the proper steps in that original case.  Why did the court suddenly rule that no warrant/suspicion is even needed? 
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BryanP

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2009, 10:14:46 AM »
What would happen if YOU attached a GPS device to a police car without a warrant? =D

Probably nothing good.

What would happen if you found a GPS device attached to your car and called the police saying "Send the EOD team!  I think there's a bomb attached to my car!" ?

 =D
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RevDisk

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2009, 10:28:40 AM »
I'm going out on a limb here and say that this whole GPS thing may be constitutional. But it probably should be prohibited (i.e., that states should pass laws limiting the practice).

No, you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy while you're out in the street. Would you be okay if someone assigned a police officer to shadow you?

I don't doubt it will somehow be ruled Constitutional.  What remains to be seen is what happens if the person finds the GPS thingie.   Is it legal for them to remove it?  Do they legally have to return it, at their own expense, to the original owner?  Can ordinary folks bug vehicles as well, or only police?  What's the law stating so?  Back in the day, I was trained to look under my HMMWV for any leaks or IED's.   I find it hilarious that now I should periodically check to see if I'm being watched by (hopefully) the police.  For all I know, it could be fistful that's bugging my car.

As an infosec buff, I can't but see the potential for entertainment.  Scan your car with an RF field strength meter (HAM folks sell them) and visually, find an tracking device, use gloves to remove, wrap it in RF damping material, attach it to the car of a mayor/DA/lawyer/civil rights person/journalist and then call up the local papers "There may be a police GPS tracking device attached to XYZ's car, might want to ask him about it" from a throw away prepaid cell.  I'd never do so, seriously, but I imagine it's only a matter of time until it happens.  Or the police beat us all to the punch by doing so first.

Personally, if I could obviously tell it was not an IED, I would remove it and leave it on my porch with a note taped to it.  If I couldn't absolutely tell if it was not an IED, I'd call the police, explain that I have a strange foreign device strapped to my car that I can't identify and request the bomb squad be sent out. 
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2009, 10:30:02 AM »
What would happen if you found a GPS device attached to your car and called the police saying "Send the EOD team!  I think there's a bomb attached to my car!" ?
 =D

I LIKE this.  Very clever.

How would one of these planted GPS units maintain power?  A battery would only be good for maybe a day or so.  They would have to tap into your car's power system to maintain long term surveillance.  That would be an actual physical alteration of your car.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2009, 10:35:27 AM »
I LIKE this.  Very clever.

How would one of these planted GPS units maintain power?  A battery would only be good for maybe a day or so.  They would have to tap into your car's power system to maintain long term surveillance.  That would be an actual physical alteration of your car.

No, they can run for several days.

It's essentialy just a digital cell-phone. They already talk to the towers with a quick burst every so often just to update service info. This also makes the battery life longer, because it's only using juice for a few % of every minute.

And since the device does not need to light up a keyboard or a screen, and isn't wasting cpu power on a user interface, texting, or camera phone, or mp3 ringtones, it'll last even longer.
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Standing Wolf

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2009, 10:58:53 AM »
Quote
Have we stopped even pretending that we have a bill of rights?

You're obviously a right wing terrorist. Once we've acclimated you to the idea of a GPS, you'll be ready to accommodate yourself to a cell in a re-education center.

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Re: Ok for cops to attach GPS trackers to cars without a warrent
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2009, 11:50:29 AM »
I think the battery life can actually go for a couple weeks. And attachment is easy: they sit in a nice waterproof case with heavy-duty magnet mounts. We were going to use one for a case, but decided that doing so would be stepping over the line for us, legally speaking.

 And I'd like ElT's take on it, but if it doesn't require a warrant, then wouldn't it be perfectly legal for a private citizen to do?
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