Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI

[MicroBalrog]

Now, as some of you know, I am working on a TEOTWAWKI novel.

In this novel, a wealthy hobby-survivalist is stuck tending to a group of his friends who are traveling across the CONUS after TEOTWAWKI occurs. Two of the characters have extensive firearms training - the survivalist and an Army veteran, and another one has a limited experience hunting with his father and so forth. The other three people have very limited training, mostly limited to basic gun safety.


So, how would you provide those last 3 people with basic gun training after civilization is gone? Assume that before the event, you were rather wealthy and prepared.

[CNYCacher]

I am not wealthy or particularly "prepared" but I am sure I could train 10-20 people on safe use of firearms with a pair of 22 rifles and a brick of ammo.  25-50 rounds per person is certainly enough for passing familiarity.

[Nick1911]

Assuming you have a location where you can freely shoot without attracting hostile attention, and assuming that you have the time and resources to spare -

I'd just go over basic rifle and pistol usage, and let em fire through a few magazines.  Guns are pretty simple mechanical devices.

[RoadKingLarry]

Air rifles/BB guns. any serious gunfire may attract the wrong sort of company.

[Nick1911]

Realistically, I'd be more concerned in making sure that someone has some medical training. 

[MicroBalrog]

Realistically, I'd be more concerned in making sure that someone has some medical training. 

It is sufficient that SOME people in the group have medical training, but absolutely everybody and his sister need to be armed.

[onions!]

Realistically, I'd be more concerned in making sure that someone has some medical training. 

Unless it's a Zombie scenario.Then shooting skills become medical training.

[lee n. field]

TEOTWAKI novel

You're familiar with United State-ian geography, right?

Remember, there are no mountains in Illinois.

[AJ Dual]

Without some serious schooling, from .mil, or a Blackwater/Magpul/Thunder-Ranch type of place, it's still just punching paper. To really survive with some combat efficacy, you'd need to learn to do that under stress, to the point it's got some major muscle memory behind it. So unless they can set up a "school", there really is no training. Because any further post-SHTF training given in terms of an impromptu shooting range is just more "familiarization and basic safety training."

For the "something's better than nothing" approach, you could look at the Appleseed shoot info, they make their training course and shooting info availible online. And it's geared towards simulating 300-400 yard rifle fire with .22 rifles at 25 yards, and teaching the basic ballistics and sight adjustments to be a "rifleman"...So if you wanted to postulate a rich guy who wanted to teach others marksmanhip post-SHTF, and do so with limited resources, it would be with .22 rifles firing at short range (25 yards) with scaled AQC targets (Army Qualification Course). You could put an Appendix thanking the Appleseed org etc. too.

The noise of .22LR wouldn't travel that far, and presumably one could instruct, while the other guarded the practice session from an LP/OP with a good vantage point. And anywhere reasonably rural, and depending on how depopulating the SHTF event was, odds would be low anyone would be hearing them.

If you look here on some of the Appleseed Shoot threads, we even discuss places that sell replacement sights for Ruger 10/22's, and even charging handles, magazine releases that more closely match M16/M4/M14 types of sights and whatnot...

So maybe something akin to Appleseed with some running and exercise to simulate combat stress, and rapid courses of fire announced at random times would be about as close as you could get and keep it believeable as to what someone could do in the woods, or an empty field etc.

[Nick1911]

It is sufficient that SOME people in the group have medical training, but absolutely everybody and his sister need to be armed.

Agreed, but there's no need to make tacticool snipers out of em.

"This is a S&W 642.  Here is how you open the cylinder.  [Insert rounds] [Closes cylinder]  Point and pull the trigger.  Don't ever let this out of your reach."

Let em fire a few shots to get a feel for what to expect, and you're done.

Basic personal defense.

Or, are you looking to set up a boot camp - to get people combat ready? 

[roo_ster]

Shooting Training

Dryfire, dryfire, dryfire.

Thousands or tens of thousands of trigger-pulls on an emty chamber before round one is sent down range.

Dime drills, SPORTS, etc. , with emphasis on trigger control.

Nowadays, a visible laser on a collet is also an option.

After dryfire, then .22LR at targets reduced in size to simulate distance.

Last, break out centerfire weapons to become famiiarized.

Combat Training

As AJD pointed out, shooting training != combat training.

Thing is, even most combat training is lacking in the requisite intensity and stress.

In TEOTWAWKI, combat training will mostly be OJT.  IOW, learning by doing.  There will be no time to stop and set up school, as most time is needed to survive.

Some will not learn quickly enough.

I would suggest you double the initial size of your group, anticipating that half will soon be killed off in the first 5%-25% of the story, leaving the remaining folk you have mentioned.  They will be the quick learners who survive "infant mortality" to reach "adulthood."

[xavier fremboe]

I do almost of my handgun practice with a 'blue gun' (but mine's orange), but I'm mainly practicing draws, stance, and speed.  However, when I show someone proper grip/stance, it is with that.  It's nice to hand someone something with a totally inert bangswitch.  You can spend an hour with someone holding a molded nylon Glock 17 with no danger of them shooting anything, and then spend 15 minutes teaching them the sight picture and recoil management. 

I don't do much long gun practice.  The Appleseed thing sounds interesting, though...

[seeker_two]

Look up Rob Pincus and Combat Focused Shooting....he has a section of his course where he shows how to instruct someone to operate a firearm within 30 minutes....check www.downrange.tv for more info....

[freakazoid]

Thousands or tens of thousands of trigger-pulls on an emty chamber before round one is sent down range.

Doesn't dry firing hurt the gun?

[roo_ster]

Doesn't dry firing hurt the gun?

Most times, not a bit.

There are exceptions.  .22LR, due to rimfire design is one.  Cap & ball revolvers is likely another.

But, the issue weapons I had in the service (M16A2, M4A1, M9) had courses of training that included extensive dry-fire.

[French G.]

Just have a short and bloody chapter where the group is attacked by the radiation affected zombies or whatever. Everyone gets handed a gun, everyone that survives gets a TEOTWAWKI firearms training degree.   

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Is firearms training necessary to the plot?  Can't you just gloss over it saying that the experts spent a few hours teaching the noobs how to shoot?

In other words, just how realistic does this TEOTWAWKI novel have to be?

[MicroBalrog]

See, I have a thing going where I am as realistic as I can be describing physical processes or events or technical details; but I tend towards the pulp in terms of what decisions people take and what luck they get.

I am, after all, writing a pulp novel; but the purpose of having a chapter where the team have taken a break on their journey to stop somewhere secluded and to learn how to shoot from the leader of the party is to once more hammer in how skilled and smart and awesome he is, teaching  people stuff.

Which reminds me: What is a good age for a character who is a local judge and has a pair of teenage children? Would 40-50 work?

[209]

See, I have a thing going where I am as realistic as I can be describing physical processes or events or technical details; but I tend towards the pulp in terms of what decisions people take and what luck they get.

I like books that do that. 

I am, after all, writing a pulp novel; but the purpose of having a chapter where the team have taken a break on their journey to stop somewhere secluded and to learn how to shoot from the leader of the party is to once more hammer in how skilled and smart and awesome he is, teaching  people stuff.

If they have a week or so, have a day or two of what we called "snapping in" in the Corps.  Basically learning a good sight picture, good sight alignment and trigger control using dry firing.  Also work in the standard positions.  Move to shooting (probably .22s).  One day with whatever the larger caliber firearms are.  If the guy is really that wealthy, maybe he has a bunch of weapons with "cans".  Then it's a lot quieter.  Basic tactics can be worked in a few drills.  Keep those simple- like common patrol techniques.  Even knowing the basics can be good- the reinforcement and redundancy of doing them is what actually counts.  Those can be mentioned later as the folks improve.... or get stupid and forget one.   

Which reminds me: What is a good age for a character who is a local judge and has a pair of teenage children? Would 40-50 work?

Maybe 38 or older?  Depends on the age of the teens.  Make him a liberal criminal judge who has an epiphany and discovers some folks actually just need killin'   

[MicroBalrog]

Maybe 38 or older?  Depends on the age of the teens.  Make him a liberal criminal judge who has an epiphany and discovers some folks actually just need killin'   laugh

He's actually even cooler. I've not detailed his political views [because politics sort of become irrelevant when it's glow-in-the-dark time], but he's a stern old-time conservative open-door-to-women sort, curmugeonly and good with an M-14.

[209]

.... curmudgeonly and good with an M-14.

See.... there a country for (grouchy or crusty) old men after all. 

[AJ Dual]

I'd make him mid-forties.

It's the best balance of being believeable of still having the physical prowess to at least handle basic infantry style hiking, running, and shooting, and old enough to have the needed gravitas as leader etc.

[209]

I'd make him mid-forties.

It's the best balance of being believeable of still having the physical prowess to at least handle basic infantry style hiking, running, and shooting, and old enough to have the needed gravitas as leader etc.

What???  Speak for yourself there young 'un.  I'm over 50 nearing 60.  I can still do all of the infantry stuff.  80 lb combat load- piece of cake!  Firing and moving- no problem!  I. .nk 

Errr... wait a minute.

Sorry, my wife looked over my shoulder and started laughing so hard, she started choking on her sandwich and slapped me upside the head.  Now she's says I have to type the truth.  How about a 10lb combat load- piece of cake.  Firing (still can do) and moving (very slowly to the next position and then taking two minutes to get into what I now call a good sitting position which isn't anywhere near as tight as the one the Corps taught me as I don't bend that far anymore). 

You're right.  Mid 40s is believable.  I started figuring out I couldn't run with the "big dogs" (light infantry scouts) about the time I hit 41 (maybe even around 39 but I lied to myself pretty well for a few years) so your suggestion would ring a bell with me.  In my case, I finally figured out those young soldiers could do the things I thought I could still do a lot quicker and easier than I could.  And they could do them for days at a time in a high tempo op.  I was good for a few hours and then seriously needed a nap. 

Of course there was this 1st Sgt who was older than me and he was an unstoppable force, but there's always one of them floating around. Us smart mere mortals got out of the game once we got too slow and became a liability.  Staff job at one of the S-shops or teaching NCO courses or something was a lot easier and didn't slow down the fighters.  Many times, that was the reality of it.

But that's why I like nicely written stories about older guys still doing what needs to be done.  I'm an avid reader and enjoy good books.  A good story line and believable character make it for me.  If the protagonist is a character I can relate to, it's even better. 

MicroBalrog- if you give me a good and moderately old main character- I'll buy your first copy. 

[Antibubba]

For target practice and learning the basics of aiming, I'd suggest a few pellet guns.  But for neophytes who need to be able to kill something, I'd suggest shotguns.  Maybe one of the shooters taught their children with 20 gauge pumps, or the hunter has a few Sears-brand break-open single shots.  I'd rather not have my limited ammo supply gutted by panic-stricken newbies who just keep pulling the trigger until the mag is empty.  And in a panic, who wants to bet their muzzle control is perfect?  No need for for magnum shells; even a steel turkey load up close would inflict serious ouchies.

If you're giving them handguns, then .38 revolvers with cast HP or SWC rounds.

[MicroBalrog]

The way I see it working out is this:

There is the protagonist (or is he the protagonist?), who is a witty, smart, wealthy, and yet entirely insane survivalist who made a bundle of money and retired into a stereotypical bunker. Problem is he wasn't a survivalism out of really believing in the zombie holocaust, but because he wanted to have fun shooting guns, training in obscure skills, and planning defenses. Thus his guns aren't 'an assortment of guns to give your friends when SHTF', they are a massive gun collection. Oodles of tactical guns, MREs, gear.

There is the Judge, his wife and two children [a 17-year-old prodigy daughter with a high-gifted IQ 16-year-old typical teenage boy who is smart, but absolutely nothing too much next to Big Sister], and a random librarian/secretary type they picked up in the chaos. Their area gets caught in fallout from a nuclear exchange. [Shut up about the impossibility of an all-out nuclear war in the current political climate].

As for guns, the Judge (who is obviously a veteran too, because it's a pulp novel and I don't care for sanity) has obviously taught his wife and son gun safety and so forth (the son hunts), though Prodigy Daughter has avoided anything more than safety reasons because she just wasn't that much interested.

So they run. As some of you know, no doubt, in a serious nuclear exchange, most of the Eastern and central United States will end up spammed up with fallout in such heavy amounts that remaining there will not be viable. Because they are positioned on the southern side of the fallout cloud, they go South (most of Florida, Lousiana, Southern Texas and so forth is estimated to be relatively safe according to the maps I am using). But they can't stay there, because of the economic collapse and general violence and so forth, so they plan on crossing CONUS and going up the West coast into Canada and Alaska, where the fallout belts will serve to isolate them from the chaos and violence.

[Yes I know it is a questionable strategy. It's an excuse

Their strategy is composed of running and hiding from trouble  whenever they can, rather than confronting it head-on. A reasonable one in the event of