Author Topic: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?  (Read 14885 times)

makattak

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Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« on: September 10, 2009, 10:49:32 AM »
http://usjamerica.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/remember-remember-the-8th-of-november-1994-that-is/

Quote
This has been said before, but it’s worth repeating: a robust health care reform bill will not hurt Democratic electoral prospects next year.  If anything, it will energize the Democratic base, discourage Republican opposition, and give Democrats – conservative or otherwise – the opportunity to campaign on delivering “affordable health care” to their constituents.  For recently-elected Democrats vulnerable to high Republican turnout, this is a good thing. Someone needs to explain to our centrist and conservative friends that their fates are directly tied to the success of health care reform; after all, Democrats didn’t lose the House in 1994 because they passed a reform package, they lost because they failed and voters reacted accordingly.

This is a claim I've read elsewhere.

Democrats think they lost in 1994 because they FAILED to pass healthcare. They think their voters were dissatisfied with them is why they lost.

Seriously? They are so deluded that they don't realize they lost because they TRIED TO PASS IT. Imagine how bad it would have been had they succeeded.

I can remember 1994. People were angry NOT because the democrats didn't live up to their "promises", they were angry because they were trying to take over healthcare. Do they honestly think that succeeding will save them?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

longeyes

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2009, 10:52:53 AM »
Democrats believe that politics is about how much you can promise to give away, regardless of whether it makes any economic sense or violates justice.  Yes, they really do believe they err by doing less.
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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2009, 11:07:31 AM »
Quote
   
Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?

Very much so. Very much so. They are true believers in their cause, and will not give up.

Republicans fail to realize this fanatical devotion for what it is.

Quote
I can remember 1994. People were angry NOT because the democrats didn't live up to their "promises", they were angry because they were trying to take over healthcare. Do they honestly think that succeeding  will save them?

You are only thinking ahead one or two election cycles.

Okay, say the Dems do pass healthcare and get tossed out. The Republicans come in. Will the Republicans repeal the healthcare? Not bloody likely. Meanwhile, the mainstream media is running 24/7 pumping out anti-Republican propaganda and the Dems behave like they did back when they were in the minority during the Bush administration (i.e, obstructing stuff whenever they can and sure as hell not "working in bipartisanship" like the Republicans are so eager to do).

 Within a couple of election cycles, the Dems are back to continue their campaign of destruction, with the help of RHINOs, of course.




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makattak

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2009, 11:15:00 AM »
Very much so. Very much so. They are true believers in their cause, and will not give up.

Republicans fail to realize this fanatical devotion for what it is.

You are only thinking ahead one or two election cycles.

Okay, say the Dems do pass healthcare and get tossed out. The Republicans come in. Will the Republicans repeal the healthcare? Not bloody likely. Meanwhile, the mainstream media is running 24/7 pumping out anti-Republican propaganda and the Dems behave like they did back when they were in the minority during the Bush administration (i.e, obstructing stuff whenever they can and sure as hell not "working in bipartisanship" like the Republicans are so eager to do).

 Within a couple of election cycles, the Dems are back to continue their campaign of destruction, with the help of RHINOs, of course.

I am well aware of how passing this will drive us ever onward to European Socialism (YAY!), but my incredulity is that the Democrats think they lost because they failed. AND, by implication, think that PASSING this healthcare will win the election for them next year.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Standing Wolf

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2009, 11:29:05 AM »
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Democrats believe that politics is about how much you can promise to give away, regardless of whether it makes any economic sense or violates justice.  Yes, they really do believe they err by doing less.

"Wait!" I wanted to object. "That's completely irrational!"

I selected and copied and hit the reply button. I pasted the copied text into a quote. Fingers poised over the keyboard, I... Well, I... I reread it. I started to sketch one of my usual snide remarks about leftist extremists and/or socialist and/or statist parasites.

I do manage to stay on message fairly well; unfortunately, that's up there with being really good at counting angels dancing on pin heads.

I remembered moving from Iowa to Michigan when I was seven years old. My father sat me down with a map and showed me the roads we were going to take, the new state we were going to live in. He talked about the new house, the new school I'd be going to, new places we'd go and sights we'd see. Some of that was interesting in a mild way; at the heart of the matter, however, I didn't want to go to a completely different state.

The big move worked out all right. I noticed my mother never really made the move. She mourned Iowa beef and Iowa corn and Iowa this, that, and umpty-dozen other things all the rest of her life. I'm sure it didn't occur to either of my parents to go anywhere else on vacation. My father interested himself in fishing and later skiing, and drove all over Michigan. I had a good time in the Boy Scouts, and learned considerably more than I noticed at the time. Apart from hitchhikking trips and brief moves, I stayed in Michigan through my twenties, then went to Wisconsin when unemployment in upper Michigan crossed the 35% mark. I still miss Michigan now and then. Both my parents are buried there. My brother continues to get by without actually working for a living there. I sometimes flirt with the idea of driving back that way on one of my trips, though I've ended up becoming a westerner at heart. Realistically speaking, Michigan is a failure. $.90 of every tax dollar collected in the upper peninsula, for example, ends up being poured down the drain of southeastern Michigan: Detroit, in short. Unemployment is beyond counting. Anyone with ambition gets up and goes. The governor is still taxing and squandering for all she's worth. It's become a monument to the abject failure of so-called "affirmative action" and so-called "welfare." The current resident of the White House has handed uncounted billions to the United Auto Workers in the name of "bailing out" two out of the three American car companies: billions that aren't being accounted for nor ever will be.

What's all that got to do with the price of pickles in Pakistan?

It's occurred to me I may have overlooked the obvious: while I've been complaining the leftist extremists are trying to turn America into a larger, slightly more prosperous East Germany, they've already done it. I've remarked a time or two this isn't the same country I was born in. That sounded snappy. I just didn't realize it was true.

longeyes wrote:

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Yes, they really do believe they err by doing less.

Yep. They're as sure even more needs to be done as the door to door Jesus jumpers who believe they're a special exception to the "No Soliciting" sign immediately below my door bell button. They sincerely do believe we don't have enough government. They sincerely do believe we need still more—and more and more and more—government intervention.

I've been thinking all this time they're trying to change the rules. In fact, they've already moved the entire country out from under us. They couldn't move us, so they moved the whole country.
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charby

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2009, 02:23:21 PM »
The Republicans are that deluded too, seems like they think everyone is against gay marriage and against abortion, and those two topics will create a Republican super majority.

Both parties get to narrowly focused on a few minute ideals and fowl it up for everyone else.

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HankB

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2009, 03:06:50 PM »
When Reagan won his second term, on election night I remember a Democrat pundit indignantly sputtering "We're right on this issue, we're right on that issue - these results are crazy - the people HAVE to vote for us!"

"The people HAVE to vote for us!"

Insufferable arrogance and self-delusion, coupled with a poor candidate, cost them the White House.

But they CAN be trained - remember when the Dems lost 54 seats in the House? Even Clinton recognized that at least 20 were due to their votes on the AWB. Today, many democrats - all but those from the safest districts - don't want to TOUCH gun control.

The Republicans are that deluded too, seems like they think everyone is against gay marriage and against abortion, and those two topics will create a Republican super majority.
Abortion in particular isn't even in the top 10 list for many GOP voters, they're more concerned about fiscal responsibility (Bush & Co. cost the GOP a lot of credibility there) and the fact that some prominent Republicans (cough - McCain - cough)  have been on the wrong side of other hot button issues like illegal alien amnesty.
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charby

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2009, 03:26:52 PM »
Abortion in particular isn't even in the top 10 list for many GOP voters, they're more concerned about fiscal responsibility (Bush & Co. cost the GOP a lot of credibility there) and the fact that some prominent Republicans (cough - McCain - cough)  have been on the wrong side of other hot button issues like illegal alien amnesty.

That is probably true but if a Republican candidate doesn't go on record condemning legal abortion they seem to get cast aside and lose the support of the party.
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makattak

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2009, 03:51:09 PM »
That is probably true but if a Republican candidate doesn't go on record condemning legal abortion they seem to get cast aside and lose the support of the party.

I'm sure you're referring to Mitt Romney here.

The reason is: The core of the Republican voters ARE opposed to abortion as murder. There's no room for compromise for "less murder".

You will of course respond that they could ignore those voters and simply run as pro-abortion because those voters have nowhere else to go with their vote. Unfortunately, they do. They can just go home and ythey have.

If you want to get smaller government, you're going to have to accept that those who are your best allies want most abortions stopped.

Honestly, is the ability to have sex without the consequence of a baby that important to you?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

charby

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2009, 03:55:08 PM »
Honestly, is the ability to have sex without the consequence of a baby that important to you?

No

I am saying that there are more important (and bigger) things to be concerned about then abortion and gay marriage. Those two items should pretty much be small potatoes on a candidates platform.

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makattak

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2009, 04:05:47 PM »
No

I am saying that there are more important (and bigger) things to be concerned about then abortion and gay marriage. Those two items should pretty much be small potatoes on a candidates platform.



I agree there are more important things than gay marriage to be concerned with. Can you honestly think that those who believe abortion to be murder of a baby would believe it less important than... well... ANYTHING?

I think those who refuse to support someone who is for a smaller government AND is also opposed to abortion because of his position on abortion are a great deal more worrisome than those who think abortion is killing a baby and therefore refuse to support anyone who is for that.

IF what you want is someone for smaller government AND your most ardent supporters also are opposed to abortion, shouldn't you be looking for a candidate that holds both those positions rather than complaining that the candidates that only support your preferred position get shut down?

E.g. what's wrong with a Ronald Reagan?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Gowen

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2009, 04:22:37 PM »
The Republicans are that deluded too, seems like they think everyone is against gay marriage and against abortion, and those two topics will create a Republican super majority.

Both parties get to narrowly focused on a few minute ideals and fowl it up for everyone else.



Your little synopsis is flawed, when Republicans sail to the right, they win elections.  Regan, hard right, two terms.  George HW Bush, soft right, one term.  Newt Gingrich, hard right message, Republicans won.  Bob Dole, soft right, lost.  George W Bush, talked to the right, McCain to the middle, Bush won.  Bush and Republicans stay hard on core issues and hold both houses in 2002.  Republicans soften up and barely win in 2004.  Republicans go really soft in 2006 and loose badly.  Need I go on.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 04:49:06 PM by scanr »
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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2009, 04:24:38 PM »
Charby's point here is "I don't care about abortion, no one else should either." Sadly, the vast majority of hard line Republican base voters do, in fact, care about it. And they will, in fact, vehemently reject anyone who is for it.
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Standing Wolf

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2009, 04:45:27 PM »
Quote
I am saying that there are more important (and bigger) things to be concerned about then abortion and gay marriage. Those two items should pretty much be small potatoes on a candidates platform.

"Small potatoes" until you pause to ponder the fact abortion results in human deaths.
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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2009, 04:52:02 PM »
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Can you honestly think that those who believe abortion to be murder of a baby would believe it less important than... well... ANYTHING?
Exactly.

Quote
Both parties get to narrowly focused on a few minute ideals and fowl it up for everyone else.
They like those ideals because they can gin up strong reactions, thus voter turnout. What's even better, it lets them do as they please in any number of other areas. Corporate welfare? No problem. Universal healthcare? Ditto.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2009, 04:52:58 PM »
"Small potatoes" until you pause to ponder the fact abortion results in human deaths.

Aside from the ethical issues of abortion versus murder, think of the number of potential tax payers that no longer exist as a result of abortion.

Social Security was never designed to accommodate abortion on demand.  Ponzi schemes must have a spiraling subordinate population.  Our tax system in general is capitalistic in nature and requires a growing market share to function properly.  Abortion undermines that from an economic perspective.

Putting it plainly and rather insensitively, abortion increases taxes per capita.

Another side effect of the abortion on demand environment:  it allows physical adults to behave like irresponsible teens for as long as they want.  Having a child is often a wake-up call for many couples to knuckle down and start being productive towards their own future.  This decreases crime, increases civic responsibility, reduces neighborhood blight, reduces drinking and drug use, increases tax revenues and drives couples to achieve more in their lives.

Fewer abortions and more babies results in greater responsibility overall.
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charby

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2009, 04:59:57 PM »
I give up, you right wing conservatives can have your theocratic society/government, just think Iran but Christian instead of Muslim.

Lets start stoning people who don't argee with whatever sec of Christianity you belong too.
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Gowen

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2009, 05:02:09 PM »
I give up, you right wing conservatives can have your theocratic society/government, just think Iran but Christian instead of Muslim.

Lets start stoning people who don't argee with whatever sec of Christianity you belong too.


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makattak

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2009, 05:02:36 PM »
I give up, you right wing conservatives can have your theocratic society/government, just think Iran but Christian instead of Muslim.

Lets start stoning people who don't argee with whatever sec of Christianity you belong too.


Wow, and I went out of my way to lay it out civilly.

Funny how "abortion isn't important" apparently translates into "abortion IS important and I want it!"
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

charby

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2009, 05:10:38 PM »
Also I never said I was for abortion, I personally wouldn't want to be part of/associated with an abortion but if a person wants to make that choice and live with it, it is their decision. I'm not the one who is allowed to judge, they will have to settle that later.

Lot of the actions of the right wing conservatives have really almost made want to quit the republican party. Seems like they really don't give a care anymore about fiscal conservative issues, say what they have to to get elected.




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Balog

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2009, 05:17:36 PM »
Whether or not they care about fiscal conservatism is not related to whether they care about abortion.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2009, 05:24:37 PM »
Charby's point here is "I don't care about abortion, no one else should either." Sadly, the vast majority of hard line Republican base voters do, in fact, care about it. And they will, in fact, vehemently reject anyone who is for it.
A majority of Americans oppose both gay marriage and on-demand abortion.  Why would a party put forth candidates who are in favor of either?

charby

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2009, 05:26:08 PM »
A majority of Americans oppose both gay marriage and abortion.  Why would a party put forth candidates who are in favor of either?

legitimate poll please
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« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 05:32:19 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Jim147

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Re: Are Democrats REALLY this deluded?
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2009, 05:33:18 PM »
Aside from the ethical issues of abortion versus murder, think of the number of potential tax payers that no longer exist as a result of abortion.

Social Security was never designed to accommodate abortion on demand.  Ponzi schemes must have a spiraling subordinate population.  Our tax system in general is capitalistic in nature and requires a growing market share to function properly.  Abortion undermines that from an economic perspective.

Putting it plainly and rather insensitively, abortion increases taxes per capita.

Another side effect of the abortion on demand environment:  it allows physical adults to behave like irresponsible teens for as long as they want.  Having a child is often a wake-up call for many couples to knuckle down and start being productive towards their own future.  This decreases crime, increases civic responsibility, reduces neighborhood blight, reduces drinking and drug use, increases tax revenues and drives couples to achieve more in their lives.

Fewer abortions and more babies results in greater responsibility overall.

I have to wonder about a few of your statements.
Are you saying the majority of these abortions would turn out to be non-welfare good upstanding citizens?

I ask because the last time I did a yearly refrigeration inspection at a planned parenthood place most of the young ladies in there didn't give me the married in a good home feeling.

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