Man Pilloried by Vets for Burning Flag

[Ben]

Well, he was given three choices.... 

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http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=846181

 Suspected flag burner pilloried
Alleged offender hunted down, ridiculed after incident at VFW post
 
By BOB GARDINIER AND HUMBERTO MARTÍNEZ, Staff writer
Click byline for more stories by writer.
First published: Saturday, September 26, 2009

VALLEY FALLS -- The young man was given three choices: get turned over to the police, go one-on-one in a fight with a seasoned war veteran, or be duct-taped to a flagpole for six hours with a sign around his neck identifying his alleged crime: flag burning.

It was the third option that would still have the small town buzzing a week after a 21-year-old was hunted down and forced to endure a public humiliation with its roots dating to the Middle Ages. Members of the Veterans of Foreign Wars Post 1938 were incensed enough to tie up the man last Sunday after they accused him of setting the flag in front of their building on fire.

Post Commander Nick Normile, a Vietnam War veteran, said the man came into the post's bar Sept. 18 on Poplar Avenue and was eventually turned away for not having a proper ID.

Apparently angered, the young man, who Normile did not want to name, cut the rope of the American flag flying overhead and used a cigarette lighter to set it on fire, Normile and others said.

The man sat pilloried as the village had its fall youth soccer picnic with a long parade of children passing in front of him.

"He'll never disrespect the flag again, I can tell you that," Normile said.

Normile said the flag had at one point flown over U.S. troops in Iraq had special significance.

Veterans, both local and nationwide, responded to the event as accountings were posted online to the official VFW Facebook page and national Web site. Comments posted supported the act and added ideas for further punishment.

Other nearby business owners said they knew of the event but refused to give an accounting. Unconfirmed reports by citizens said the alleged flag-burner was a relative of a previous commander of the post.

Calls made to the alleged flag burner and a spokesman for the national VFW organization for comments were not returned. The Rensselaer County Sheriffs office confirmed knowledge of the event, but said they were not involved. State Police in Brunswick were contacted, but a trooper said no record of the event could be found.

The flag will be disposed of at a formal ceremony, Normile said.

[TechMan]

Bravo!  Good for them.  Hopefully a little public humiliation will teach somebody a lesson. It sounds like any investigation is lost in a sea of red tape 

[MicroBalrog]

Burning a flag is a much lesser offense than assaulting a person.

[Racehorse]

Burning a flag is a much lesser offense than assaulting a person.

Nobody assaulted him. They just gave him a choice. He chose to be duct taped to a pole for six hours rather than be prosecuted for his vandalism.

[Declaration Day]

Burning a flag is a much lesser offense than assaulting a person.

Agreed.

Charge the guy with whatever form of 'malicious destruction of property' they have on the books.  Sentence him to some community service, maybe make him clean up and post flags on veterans' graves.  Make him pay for a new flag.

While I honestly do understand (and share) the anger those vets feel, they should have simply turned him over to the police.  What they did was wrong.

Oh, and challenging him to a fistfight over an insult?  Are you kidding me? That kind of  behavior is for teenagers, prisoners and low-life street gangs, not men and women of our armed forces.  I expect them to behave better than that.  

Flame away.

[Perd Hapley]

Flame I will.  Your objection makes no sense.  Why don't you respect the hooligan's freedom of choice?  And what's wrong with boxing? 

[Brad Johnson]

Agreed.

Charge the guy with whatever form of 'malicious destruction of property' they have on the books.  Sentence him to some community service, maybe make him clean up and post flags on veterans' graves.  Make him pay for a new flag.

While I honestly do understand (and share) the anger those vets feel, they should have simply turned him over to the police.  What they did was wrong.

Oh, and challenging him to a fistfight over an insult?  Are you kidding me? That kind of  behavior is for teenagers, prisoners and low-life street gangs, not men and women of our armed forces.  I expect them to behave better than that. 

Flame away.

No need to flame when you've already thoroughly embarrassed yourself. Ridiculing patriots for being patriots? You're a better person than that.

 For added emphasis I quote YOUR personal tagline...

In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man; brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot. -Mark Twain

Brad

[jackdanson]

They should have called the police and pressed charges.  What they did was immature and shows a lack of discipline and self control.  That said, it IS pretty dang funny.

[Declaration Day]

No need to flame when you've already embarrassed yourself by ridiculing patriots for being patriots.

I guess it depends on your definition of a patriot.  Mine does not include acting immaturely or irrationally over insults.  Including yours, but I'll give you an A for effort. 

[Declaration Day]

Flame I will.  Your objection makes no sense.  Why don't you respect the hooligan's freedom of choice?  And what's wrong with boxing? 

Nothing in my post says anything about disrepecting the hooligan's choice.  My problem is that those choices were given to him.  They should have turned him over to the police.

[Brad Johnson]

They should have called the police and pressed charges.  What they did was immature and shows a lack of discipline and self control.

Incorrect. It shows they have motivation, focus, and a sense of self-worth they are willing to defend in the face of a society that currently shuns these as weaknesses rather than strengths.

Brad

[Brad Johnson]

I guess it depends on your definition of a patriot.  Mine does not include acting immaturely or irrationally over insults.

Sigh. It's sad when standing your ground and fighting for what is right and true is now considered immature and irrational.

Brad

[Declaration Day]

Sigh. It's sad when standing your ground and fighting for what is right and true is now considered immature and irrational.

Brad

I don't entirely disagree with you.  Where we differ, I suppose, is where you draw that line.  Taking action when it's needed is a sign of a true patriot, according to me.  Doing so because one feels like it, not so much. 

You obviously feel strongly about this topic Brad, so I thank you for your honesty and will leave it at that.  We'll just have to agree to disagree. 

[RocketMan]

I'm wondering when the kid is going to sue.  Hopefully the VFW has a deep legal defense fund.

[Brad Johnson]

I'm wondering when the kid is going to sue.  Hopefully the VFW has a deep legal defense fund.

He can't, or at least he won't have a foot to stand on if he tries. These old codgers had their wits about them when they acted. In giving HIM the choice of actions, choices which included three very different and distinct courses of action (including turning the matter over to the authorities), they placed the burden of responsibility in the kid's lap. He chose. They performed. End of story.

Brad

[RocketMan]

Brad, the kid will claim coercion, that he was forced to make that choice, perhaps while being improperly detained.  Given today's litigious society, I cannot imagine the VFW getting a pass on a lawsuit.

[Brad Johnson]

Oh, they won't get a pass. I would be very surprised if there wasn't some form of future litigation relating to the incident.

What the VFW will have is an extremely strong case for their side. It's hard to make a coercion charge stick when the "victim" was given the choice of three very distinct actions, on of which was turning the incident over to authorities. They have a whole group of witnesses that will say, to a person, the perp willingly chose this action.

Brad

[RocketMan]

It would be interesting to see a follow-up to this story in six months or so.
In any event, the mental image of the kid duct taped to the pole is a nice one.

[Gowen]

Brad, the kid will claim coercion, that he was forced to make that choice, perhaps while being improperly detained.  Given today's litigious society, I cannot imagine the VFW getting a pass on a lawsuit.

Try vandalizing/shoplifting in any store, they can and will detain you.  They can and will give you the choice of calling the police or paying restitution.

[roo_ster]

Meh, my heart will not bleed for the vandal.

He had his choice and he made it.

Frankly, I much prefer if folks can sort out their disagreements without involving gov't.

[RocketMan]

scanr, I am just saying "improperly detained" is an argument the kid will use in a potential lawsuit.  I am not by any stretch feeling bad for the kid.
And store procedure pertaining to personnel detaining shoplifters, varies greatly by the corporation and locale.  Some places do, some don't, for a variety of reasons.

[S. Williamson]

Oh, and challenging him to a fistfight over an insult?  Are you kidding me? That kind of  behavior is for teenagers, prisoners and low-life street gangs, not men and women of our armed forces.  I expect them to behave better than that. 

I agree.  Swords, or pistols at 10 paces, would have been more becoming of gentlemen.

[Declaration Day]

I agree.  Swords, or pistols at 10 paces, would have been more becoming of gentlemen.

^
 

[Perd Hapley]

I guess it depends on your definition of a patriot.  Mine does not include acting immaturely or irrationally over insults.  

Immature?  Irrational?  That's so disconnected from reality, I'm not even sure how to address such an error.  Anyway, burning someone else's American flag, especially at the VFW hall, is well beyond an insult.  

Nothing in my post says anything about disrepecting the hooligan's choice.  My problem is that those choices were given to him.  They should have turned him over to the police.

I was being a bit facetious, there.  But the kid chose to be taped to the pole.  Why not let him?

[Declaration Day]

Immature?  Irrational?  That's so disconnected from reality, I'm not even sure how to address such an error.

No, it's not.  It's simply an opinion that differs from yours.  But of course, it's easier to try and discredit the person whose opinion it is, than to formulate an argument against the opinion.  That's two people now!  

On that note, I've made my point(s), and will bow out of this conversation before it degenerates even further.  PM me if you wish.