Author Topic: Medieval Military Tactics  (Read 15215 times)

brimic

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2009, 04:02:27 PM »
Quote
As a semi-related aside, have any of you lot tried Mount and Blade yet?  For those who havent, its a sandbox RPG with no magic, relatively primitive graphics but easily moddable and the best melee combat system in gaming:

On a semi-related aside, there was a MMRPG called 'Tribal Wars' that sucked the life out of quite a few people on this forum a year or so ago that sounds similar to your description. :laugh:
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Fjolnirsson

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2009, 04:20:34 PM »
On a semi-related aside, there was a MMRPG called 'Tribal Wars' that sucked the life out of quite a few people on this forum a year or so ago that sounds similar to your description. :laugh:

You speak as though the sucking has ended...
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brimic

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2009, 05:26:23 PM »
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You speak as though the sucking has ended...
It had to for me, it was starting to affect my work and home life :O
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

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Fjolnirsson

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2009, 05:41:40 PM »
It had to for me, it was starting to affect my work and home life :O

LOL, I know of what you speak. I took a several months break before plunging headlong back into the TribalWars vortex.
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French G.

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2009, 09:51:45 PM »
On a semi-related aside, there was a MMRPG called 'Tribal Wars' that sucked the life out of quite a few people on this forum a year or so ago that sounds similar to your description. :laugh:

I just found that game a few months ago. Off to check on my 4 worlds worth of malcontent peasants...
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I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Fjolnirsson

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2009, 10:15:58 PM »
I just found that game a few months ago. Off to check on my 4 worlds worth of malcontent peasants...

Which worlds are you on? I am currently on 15 and 41, apent a Looong time on 8.
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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2009, 11:24:06 PM »
Who is the Herodotus of the Roman Empire?  I know little to nothing about Roman history but a very great deal about ancient Greek history.  I am interested, to say the least.  I'm reading Ovid right now but that is just mythology. 
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French G.

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2009, 11:37:24 PM »
Which worlds are you on? I am currently on 15 and 41, apent a Looong time on 8.

30, 39, 40, 42
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2009, 11:42:06 PM »
On a semi-related aside, there was a MMRPG called 'Tribal Wars' that sucked the life out of quite a few people on this forum a year or so ago that sounds similar to your description. :laugh:
Yeah, I had to give that one up.  It was beginning to compromise my job, my sleep schedules, and my wife's sanity.

drewtam

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2009, 11:49:17 PM »
I agree with much of this, though one wonders how the English armies that fought during the early stages of the Hundred Years War would have faired against the legions.  After all, I cant think of an earlier army in Europe that combined great leadership, disciplined infantry, effective heavy cavalry (also capable of fighting on foot, of course) and troops able to put out as much firepower as the longbowmen were.  Given what happened at Crecy and Poitiers (and what had happened to the Scots earlier) one wonders if the legions would have even got close enough to fight in melee.    


JFRuser and Agricola, I agree that heavy infantry with polearms (or bastard swords or spears or lances) combined with shield walls per legion doctrine would be a tough nut to crack for both heavy cav and archers.

But then why didn't the military leaders of mid to high middle ages not use that tactic?
To me, by high middle ages the wealth and organization had returned to the feudal states enough to support a professional army. In fact, the wealth was enough to pay for mercenary armies from Schweiz and Allemande.
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roo_ster

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2009, 12:03:43 AM »
WEALTH
Most of Europe did again rival Roman economic development until the 18th/19th century.

Development and the farther-reaching trade of Rome had it all over the circumscribed West, whatwith all those Mohammedians blocking the waay East & South, especially the trade routes to the orient.

ECONOMY OF SCALE
Those nations that were developing economically were only portions of the Roman Empire.  How many agriculturalists would be required to keep a Roman legion in fighting trim?  How many skilled artisans?

Fighting in close order with those large weapons and trusting your buddy to cover you with their shield takes training & discipline affordable only by the nobility.  They could have been that heavy infantry, and often did dismount to fight as infantry.  But, there weren't that many of them.

I suspect the Europeans made the best choices they could given their lot.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2009, 01:38:14 AM »
My guess: Flying boulders.

Catapults and such were much more common in the middle ages as compared to Roman times, and it's hard to maintain a phalanx when you have boulders raining down on your formation.  Or cannonballs, for that matter. My guess is the looser formations kept casualties down a bit (made it a bit more difficult to take out a lot of people at once).


As jfruser said, those aren't much of a factor in an infantry vs. cavalry scenario.  They were called "siege engines" because they were used for prolonged engagements against fortified positions.  And they were built on-site, rather than hauled down the non-existent autobahns of old Europe. 

At least that is my own barely-informed opinion. 
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makattak

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2009, 08:42:46 AM »
Who is the Herodotus of the Roman Empire?  I know little to nothing about Roman history but a very great deal about ancient Greek history.  I am interested, to say the least.  I'm reading Ovid right now but that is just mythology. 

Very hard to choose just one- Roman Republic/Early Empire is Titus Livius (Livy).

Plutarch and Seutonius are historians who extend into the Empire era. Plutarch's Lives of the Roman Emperors, unfortunately, were mostly lost, but some great history still remains. Seutonius wrote a similar work, Lives of the Caesars, or The Twelve Caesars.
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agricola

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2009, 08:49:30 AM »
JFRuser and Agricola, I agree that heavy infantry with polearms (or bastard swords or spears or lances) combined with shield walls per legion doctrine would be a tough nut to crack for both heavy cav and archers.

But then why didn't the military leaders of mid to high middle ages not use that tactic?
To me, by high middle ages the wealth and organization had returned to the feudal states enough to support a professional army. In fact, the wealth was enough to pay for mercenary armies from Schweiz and Allemande.


They did - the Saxons used shield-wall tactics very effectively (until they charged down the hill) at Hastings, and the Scots managed to repeatedly beat the English by using schiltroms of pikemen (which worked until the deployment of large numbers of longbowmen).  The problem was that there was not the discipline, nor the standard of equipment, available to the average footsoldier as there was to the legionary (though as I said, one wonders whether several thousand longbowmen mixed with high-quality foot and heavy cavalry would have beaten the legion anyway).  To paraphrase what jfruser says, the development of Rome is not reached again until Victorian times - its not about comparing how rich the rich were in both times, its about comparing how rich the poor were.  

Also, as for artillery dont forget that the Romans did use cart-mounted light artillery called carroballistae which were, according to ancient sources, capable of precision fire at range, and which were taken into battle.  

Also while we are talking about Roman history, its either Livy, Suetonius or Tacitus for me.
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makattak

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2009, 09:11:19 AM »
Also while we are talking about Roman history, its either Livy, Suetonius or Tacitus for me.

Tacitus. I knew I had forgotten one- thank you.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

SADShooter

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2009, 09:56:15 AM »
It's dry and dated now, I suppose, but Cary & Scullard "History of Rome" is the work I cut my teeth on as  high school certamen competitor.
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agricola

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2009, 10:17:54 AM »
It's dry and dated now, I suppose, but Cary & Scullard "History of Rome" is the work I cut my teeth on as  high school certamen competitor.

Would that be HH Scullard?  If so, his From the Gracchi to Nero is still one of the main undergraduate texts over here for the period, or at least it was in the mid-1990s.
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SADShooter

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2009, 11:01:51 AM »
agricola:

Yes, indeed, and that is an excellent text as well.

ETA: "History of Rome" is an excellent comprehensive history, but it really shines as a reference from founding into the early Republic, this period not being as "sexy" or thoroughly explored as the late Republic and Empire.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 11:06:51 AM by SADShooter »
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Tallpine

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2009, 12:10:44 PM »
Tacitus. I knew I had forgotten one- thank you.

Though I'm still trying to figure out why the Romans retreated to the Solway-Tyne after killing "10,000" Caledonians at Mons Grampians ;)
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agricola

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2009, 12:30:59 PM »
Though I'm still trying to figure out why the Romans retreated to the Solway-Tyne after killing "10,000" Caledonians at Mons Grampians ;)

serious answer:  due to Domitian's campaigns in Dacia, one legion (II Adiutrix) was withdrawn from Britain.  This meant that XX moved south from its intended (and largely completed) base at Inchtuthil to Chester, IX stayed at York and they left the least worthwhile part of the province to its own devices.

non-serious answer:  because noone wants to stay in Scotland.

 =D
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Balog

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2009, 04:02:56 PM »
What are the history peoples thoughts on Gibbon's "Decline and fall of the Roman Empire"?
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Tallpine

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2009, 04:45:04 PM »
serious answer:  due to Domitian's campaigns in Dacia, one legion (II Adiutrix) was withdrawn from Britain.  This meant that XX moved south from its intended (and largely completed) base at Inchtuthil to Chester, IX stayed at York and they left the least worthwhile part of the province to its own devices.

non-serious answer:  because noone wants to stay in Scotland.

 =D

Well then at least they had an exit strategy from Pictistan.  :P
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agricola

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2009, 05:19:06 PM »
What are the history peoples thoughts on Gibbon's "Decline and fall of the Roman Empire"?

I agree with almost all of it, though I agree with Ward-Perkins The Fall of Rome and the End of Civilization more. 
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Jimmy Dean

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2009, 10:32:32 PM »
On a semi-related aside, there was a MMRPG called 'Tribal Wars' that sucked the life out of quite a few people on this forum a year or so ago that sounds similar to your description. :laugh:

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French G.

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Re: Medieval Military Tactics
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2009, 11:56:24 PM »
What K are you in on those worlds? K68 for 40 and K54 for 42.
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