Author Topic: Why is this taking so long?  (Read 5365 times)

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,987
Why is this taking so long?
« on: October 27, 2009, 06:23:56 PM »
And why is this "Breaking news" when the original bust was a year ago?

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_POLYGAMIST_TRIAL?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

Quote
Jury selection resumes in polygamist sect trial

ELDORADO, Texas (AP) -- Jury selection has resumed in the first criminal trial stemming from the raid of a polygamist group's ranch in Texas last year.

More than 100 potential jurors returned Tuesday morning as lawyers seek 12 jurors and two alternates for the trial of 38-year-old Raymond Jessop.

Jessop is the first man from the Yearning For Zion Ranch to go on trial since authorities raided the compound in April 2008. The compound belongs to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Jessop faces up to 20 years in prison if convicted of sexual assault of a child, a charge stemming from his alleged marriage to an underage girl.

Court documents indicate she gave birth to a daughter at the ranch when she was 16.

Prosecutors allege Jessop has nine wives. He also faces a bigamy charge that will be tried later.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

ELDORADO, Texas (AP) - Jury selection continues in the first criminal trial stemming from the raid of a polygamist sect's ranch in Texas last year.

About 150 potential jurors are being asked to return Tuesday as lawyers seek 12 jurors and two alternates for the trial of 38-year-old Raymond Jessop.

Jessop is the first man from the Yearning For Zion Ranch to go on trial since authorities raided the compound last April. He could be sentenced to up to 20 years in prison if convicted of sexual assault of a child, a charge stemming from his alleged marriage to an underage girl.

Court documents indicate she gave birth to a daughter at the ranch when she was 16.

Prosecutors allege Jessop has nine wives. He also faces a bigamy charge that will be tried later.

1 year.

And they haven't picked a jury yet.

Raymond Jessop HAS to have money somehow and a good legal defense team to obfuscate the case for a year before even going to trial.  <tinfoil> Perhaps he is getting assistance from other concerned parties in Utah or northern Arizona? </tinfoil>

How do you stall a trial this long?

Or... is it the prosecution that is taking its sweet time putting together a case?
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Parker Dean

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 405
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2009, 09:27:00 PM »
Surprised there's a trial on this one at all. OTOH, authorities have to save face and somebody's gotta pay.

Seems an anonymous tip was phoned in about child abuse at the ranch and Texas CPS and DPS swooped in and seized all the kids, about 100 IIRC, of all the families in the sect and sent them to foster homes throughout the state all the while demonizing everybody that was conceivably connected with the sect.

A few months of legal wrangling and it was found that the State didn't really have the authority to do that on that scale, plus the minor little detail that the tipster probably wasn't telling the truth left a lot of people with the potential for serious egg-on-the-face and possibly a few very dead careers (at least I would hope).

So yeah, no doubt the State is taking it's time now because they've got to have the evidence, whether it exists or not. This whole thing was such an over-reaching screw up that I would have an extremely hard time buying anything the prosecution presents as true.

Standing Wolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,978
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2009, 09:35:44 PM »
Quote
...why is this "Breaking news" when the original bust was a year ago?

Lawyers can't send out invoices for many, many, many billable hours overnight, you know. They've got to go through the motions of putting in the hours.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2009, 09:45:04 PM »
I would have an extremely hard time buying anything the prosecution presents as true.

were it not for those pesky babies born to underage kids   and then there was a lot of other pesky evidence that had lil to do with the raid.  wheres the "prophet right now?  which prison system?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Strings

  • APS Pimp
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,195
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2009, 03:28:26 AM »
AZ: we have a case up this way, that we've been involved in for going on two years now. Keep hearing that it's finally going to trial, then something gets botched.

Perp has no connections, it's just the way the legal system works sometimes...
No Child Should Live In Fear

What was that about a pearl handled revolver and someone from New Orleans again?

Screw it: just autoclave the planet (thanks Birdman)

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2009, 06:54:46 AM »
sometimes its a defendant ploy  witnesses move forget die  change their mind
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

slugcatcher

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 370
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2009, 08:18:56 AM »
From what I've heard on the local news a few months ago no child abuse was found. Several CPS workers were asked to seek employment elsewhere as a result of the raid as well. Most of the records they were using as evidence of polygamy and underage marriage were created by the people they arrested and are being called suspect by both sides. Both sides are trying to pick and choose evidence that supports their case without granting legitimacy to the evidence that doesn't.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2009, 09:48:40 AM »
define child abuse for me?  is a marriage between an underage girl and a guy her dads age abuse?especially an arranged one?  i mean here  not in india
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2009, 10:22:20 AM »
Not so very long ago it was pretty common for 16 year olds to marry. Now of course it is very rare but it still happens with parental consent. It is also very rare for a 16 year old to be mature enough to make that decision on thier own and an arranged marriage, particularly of underage people, is in our culture pretty much an abomination.
Now as far as poligamy goes, what business is it of the government to dictate what manner consenting adults choose to live?
Marriage is a religious construct that has been co-opted by the state. It is my opinion that the government needs to get it's nose out of peoples bedrooms and take care of more important matters.
If 3 men and 2 women or 2 men or 3 women want to live together and call it a marriage then what business is it of anyones but theirs?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Azrael256

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,083
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2009, 11:20:10 AM »
Quote
  is a marriage between an underage girl and a guy her dads age abuse

That's not really the problem.  We seem to be ok with agreeing on a number for defining "of age," or, alternatively, parental consent for a minor who is not old enough (I don't remember where I've read that one, but I don't think Texas allows it anyway).  The problem here is that the state has claimed that various persons were "underage" based on their appearance who were later proven to be in their twenties.  This calls into question all claims made by anybody.

So, there may well be babies born to underage kids, but about half of those claims are wholly unsubstantiated, and a substantial portion of the other half are based on questionable information.  There may not actually be any crimes here at all.

jackdanson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 702
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2009, 11:29:22 AM »
Behind every good cult there is some old guy trying to sleep with 14 year olds.  Always seems to be a recurring theme.

I don't care about polygamy between consenting adults and the gov response here wasn't appropriate, but I hope they lock up the guys who were foolin round with the youngins. My grandma had her first kid at 15, but my grandfather was only 18.  Obviously times have changed.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2009, 11:32:51 AM »
Quote
The problem here is that the state has claimed that various persons were "underage" based on their appearance who were later proven to be in their twenties.

What? I'm usually the first guy to blame the authorities, but what?


I mean - isn't the birth of every person in America documented with birth certificates, and so forth? Wouldn't it be pretty simple for a police investigator to check when somebody was born?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2009, 11:34:05 AM »
that problem was directly related to those same folks and their parents refusing to identify themselves or cooperate. kinda like the kid at home depot getting canned  you can make a principled decision  but be ready for consequences
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,690
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2009, 12:41:02 PM »
Lawyers can't send out invoices for many, many, many billable hours overnight, you know. They've got to go through the motions of putting in the hours.
Funny - I was thinking something along the same lines.

As for the prosecution's case . . . while I personally believe someone was up to no good at this place, I also believe the authorities have really, really messed up the case.

And some of the actions they took appear to have crossed the line into being criminal.

In terms of the trial . . . a juror is supposed to vote on evidence - but HOW can you in good conscience convict someone, even someone you don't like or approve of, even when your gut says "guilty," when the authorities have screwed things up so thoroughly that the evidence is, at best, unreliable?
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

BridgeRunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,845
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2009, 12:50:41 PM »
In terms of the trial . . . a juror is supposed to vote on evidence - but HOW can you in good conscience convict someone, even someone you don't like or approve of, even when your gut says "guilty," when the authorities have screwed things up so thoroughly that the evidence is, at best, unreliable?

One word: OJ.

Parker Dean

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 405
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2009, 07:27:19 PM »
In terms of the trial . . . a juror is supposed to vote on evidence - but HOW can you in good conscience convict someone, even someone you don't like or approve of, even when your gut says "guilty," when the authorities have screwed things up so thoroughly that the evidence is, at best, unreliable?

Well, theoretically a juror is not supposed to know any of this backstory garbage so it shouldn't be an issue. It's only those that followed this that know that the ones that gather, hold, and present the evidence against the defendant have screwed this up so badly that they now have an vested interest in showing incontrovertible evidence of the defendants guilt, and they won't be on that jury.

Stand_watie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,925
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2009, 12:01:54 AM »
What? I'm usually the first guy to blame the authorities, but what?


I mean - isn't the birth of every person in America documented with birth certificates, and so forth? Wouldn't it be pretty simple for a police investigator to check when somebody was born?

     Actually no. Home birth is legal and not unheard of in the U.S., and in that instance the child's birth certificate would reflect whatever date of birth the child's mother said it was. Add to that the confusion that the child's mother might very well have been a home birthed child.

    One of the "abused children" they picked up and forcibly incarcerated in the original raid turned out to be in her twenties. I've no love for the sect, and I think there are probably some dirty old men involved - but the state agencies involved were out of line in both the scope of the raid, and the amount of diligence they exercised in investigating before acting. I'm just thankful that the sect didn't have a leader like David Koresh, and we didn't wind up with another Waco.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2009, 06:19:21 AM »
...wait, what? Wasn't there a movement to restrain/ban home birth back in the early 90's? I thought it'd succeeded.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Strings

  • APS Pimp
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,195
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2009, 06:50:25 AM »
That would be a messy proposition. What the hell do you do with folks that can't either call an ambulance or get to the hospital?

And how would you prove someone claiming the above was lying?
No Child Should Live In Fear

What was that about a pearl handled revolver and someone from New Orleans again?

Screw it: just autoclave the planet (thanks Birdman)

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2009, 07:10:27 PM »
...wait, what? Wasn't there a movement to restrain/ban home birth back in the early 90's? I thought it'd succeeded.

When home births are outlawed, only outlaws will have babies at home.  =)


My twin daughters are 23, but people that don't know them think that they are early teens. 
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2009, 07:55:17 PM »

I mean - isn't the birth of every person in America documented with birth certificates, and so forth? Wouldn't it be pretty simple for a police investigator to check when somebody was born?
Npt necessarily.  

People born through "the system", that is, in hospitals and whatnot, are usually documented.  But there are still lots of people born outside the system, people in very remote or rural areas, people born at home using a midwife rather than in a hopsital, and so forth.  Those births aren't necessarily recorded in any official capacity, and when they are recorded they're generally recorded based on the testimony of people close to the family.  For instance, the parents go to the records office and attest that the child is theirs and that the birth occurred on Day X.  If they're lying to protect their cult, who would know?

The local authorities might be in on it, too.  There are some polygamist sects that are incorporated into small towns, and the sect leaders are the legitimate government authority by virtue of being the mayor, sheriff, town councilmen, official records-keeper, or whatever.  They could be in a position to falsify the official records or do other officialdom-type things to undermine the prosecution's case.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 07:58:29 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2009, 10:55:58 PM »
Quote
The local authorities might be in on it, too.  There are some polygamist sects that are incorporated into small towns, and the sect leaders are the legitimate government authority by virtue of being the mayor, sheriff, town councilmen, official records-keeper, or whatever.  They could be in a position to falsify the official records or do other officialdom-type things to undermine the prosecution's case.

I should ask the local Hutterites sometime how they handle births.

Within the colonies, they are pretty much an entity to themselves.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,857
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2009, 10:18:30 AM »
Behind every good cult there is some old guy trying to sleep with 14 year olds.  Always seems to be a recurring theme.

I don't care about polygamy between consenting adults and the gov response here wasn't appropriate, but I hope they lock up the guys who were foolin round with the youngins. My grandma had her first kid at 15, but my grandfather was only 18.  Obviously times have changed.
My great grandfather was born in 1898.  He was 14 when he married his wife and she was 13.  As far as I know, they were in East Texas and he worked in the logging trade for a while before running a hardware store in Houston later on.  They both died in the 80's.  Yes, times were different back then. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2009, 12:16:56 PM »
Quote
My great grandfather was born in 1898.  He was 14 when he married his wife and she was 13.  As far as I know, they were in East Texas and he worked in the logging trade for a while before running a hardware store in Houston later on.  They both died in the 80's.  Yes, times were different back then. 

You know, I keep hearing it said that "kids grow up too fast these days."

That's BS. :(

The fact is that kids don't grow up until much later age than in the "old days" - some of them never grow up at all  ;/
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Why is this taking so long?
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2009, 05:28:41 PM »
i was 15 wife 1 was 14 when we started dating  married her within a month of her turning 18
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I