The Pot Place?

[zahc]

Criminalizing pot has failed.  Harsher sentancing has failed.  Public education about the dangers of drug use has failed.  Now we need a new solution, even if it isn't perfect.

Has failed at what? Was there a problem? Was there ever really a pot "problem" in the first place? Because we seem to have gone from patent medicines and being able to buy everything at the pharmacy straight to everything being banned for its own sake (and the sake of expanding government power and funding). I don't remember any problem to start with.

[280plus]

Pot became suddenly illegal when a guy named Nixon was trying to reign in his opposition. Pretty convenient means of doing so I might add.

[MicroBalrog]

Pot became suddenly illegal when a guy named Nixon was trying to reign in his opposition. Pretty convenient means of doing so I might add.

Marijuana has been illegal since the 1930's.

[dm1333]

There is a lot of back and forth in here with very little substance at some points.  While doing a google search on the effects of legalizing drugs in Europe I came across two interesting things that might deserve a little more investigation.  The first I almost dismissed out of hand because I figured some of you would scoff at the source.  The second will also draw a lot of criticism (since it is from the DEA  ) but I think both serve as a good starting point for more research.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/faith-based-leaders-and-community-activists-converge-on-state-capitol-to-oppose-legalized-marijuana-67002007.html

http://www.justice.gov/dea/ongoing/legalization.html

I'm going to take a hard look at a statistic stated in the first link, which said that the state of California paid over 19.9 billion last year in treating substance abuse and addiction but only collected 1.4 billion in taxes.  Don't jump all over my *expletive deleted*ss about those figures because I'm not buying them without more research.  If true it would offer a pretty compelling argument for not legalizing pot.  Not to mention making booze illegal again too!

I view the DEA site as a good starting point but also expect to find a bias there.  It might lead to some good data on the numbers of people being imprisoned for drug use.  There has been a lot of blather on here about people being arrested for simple possession but I haven't seen anything I would accept as fact.

Here is another interesting link that I won't have time to look at tonight.  I don't know anything about this agency or how official it is.

http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/html.cfm/index190EN.html

Anybody else here willing to throw up some links to studies by respected agencies or institutions with arguments for or against the leglalization argument?  The effects of the drug on your health?  Or are we going to stick with beating the dead horse?

[White Horseradish]

I'm going to take a hard look at a statistic stated in the first link, which said that the state of California paid over 19.9 billion last year in treating substance abuse and addiction but only collected 1.4 billion in taxes.  Don't jump all over my *expletive deleted*ss about those figures because I'm not buying them without more research.  If true it would offer a pretty compelling argument for not legalizing pot. 

Nope. It won't. Simply because "substance" is not the same thing as "pot".  Unless you got something that proves that pot addiction is the only or even the biggest one they were treating.

[mellestad]

Has failed at what? Was there a problem? Was there ever really a pot "problem" in the first place? Because we seem to have gone from patent medicines and being able to buy everything at the pharmacy straight to everything being banned for its own sake (and the sake of expanding government power and funding). I don't remember any problem to start with.

There was moral(religious?) outrage, and I agree the 'solution' has caused more harm to society than pot ever did.

I would like to see it legalized and taxed (not too much though, it needs to be cheap enough people don't go back to street dealers).  Mandate that proceeds go towards dependancy treatment and drug abuse enforcement.  People are going to do drugs, full stop.  Weed is a mild health risk (motor impairment and sucking smoke into your lungs), but the side wanting to ban it needs to show that use causes more harm to society than the illegal distribution trade, as well as criminal penalties causes.

Keep in mind I say this as someone who has never even taken an illegal drug...but I have been around people when they were high, and I never saw any behavior that brought reefer madness to mind.

[PTK]

I would like to see it legalized and taxed (not too much though, it needs to be cheap enough people don't go back to street dealers).

$50/oz would be a good place to start. That would put the legal stuff far cheaper than medical and cheaper than even the lower grade street skunk.

'course, an ounce is a HUGE amount (to me).


I think the most harm I've caused while intoxicated due to marijuana was waking up my SO at 3am because I didn't trust myself with a bread knife. I wanted a sandwich. 

[Seenterman]

Lots of noise in here. Not much facts. So here yea go.

U.S. Department of Justice: An Analysis of Non-violent Drug Offenders with Minimal Criminal Histories

Using one set of criteria which limited offenders to no current or prior violence in their records, no involvement in sophisticated criminal activity and no prior commitment, there were 16,316 Federal prisoners who could be considered low-level drug law violators. They constituted 36.1 percent of all drug law offenders in the prison system and 21.2 percent of the total sentenced Federal prison population.

The average sentence of the low-level drug law offender group was 81.5 months which means that, under Guideline sentencing (must serve 85% of sentence), these individuals will serve, on average, at least 69 months before release from prison.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=147721


Did you hear that! 21% of all Federal Prisoners were non violent drug offenders! And you stand to spend 5 years and 9 months in jail for a non violent drug offence! Wana hear something crazy?  You stand to serve more time for a non violent drug conviction as you are for rape!

A study made by the U.S. Department of Justice of prison releases in 1992, involving about 80 percent of the prison population, found that the average sentence for convicted rapists was 11.8 years, while the actual time served was 5.4 years.

5.75 years for non violent drug offence
5.4 years for rape

Yea thats not disproportionate at all.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_and_punishment
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/psatsfv.txt
Check the table just scroll down a little on the gov link.

HTG, DM1333 you care to share how non violent drug offenders are more detrimental to our society than rapists? And for the matter HTG you state over and over that drug offenders cause you harm, yet offer not a single example. Would you care to tell us how a non violent drug offender has hurt you lately in a way that is not already punishable by laws on the books?  Hell does anyone want to look into how much money we are spending locking up thousands of people for doing a substance some people don't agree with? And another point about the concent of the majority, the majority of people in this world are morons. If if public demands universal healthcare you gonna go along with that too? What about redistribution of wealth? If the majority wants it, it must be whats best!

Second off about alcohol bootleggers, who ever said we could get to a point of 0% of crime?
Do you think we can legislate gun crime away?    
Do you think we can legislate bootlegging away?  
Do you think we can legislate our way to a utopia?  

If bootleggers are such a problem where are the alcohol gang wars? Drugs are profittable for criminals because there is no legal way to obtain drugs, so they can charge basically a "risk fee". Growing pot isn't a cost intensive endever, sure there is a large (depending on size of grow op) capital investment for grow lights, hydroponic equipment, and other equipment but once you invest that there is almost no up keep costs besides water and electricity.

If the gov or private companies were allowed to get in to the pot buisness they could probably charge less than what drug users pay now. And who wouldn't want to go to the cheaper, safer avenue of purchasing your recreational products. I mean who goes out looking for alcohol  bootleggers now adays when you can just run down to the liquor store? I guarentee you if you were to make alcohol illegal these bootleggers would multiply a thousandfold, and the violence would be just as bad as these criminal drug gangs.

There will ALWAYS be bootleggers, tax evaders, and criminals, its about minimizing those people by legalizing or decriminalizing (even though I think thats not far enough) pot. Legalize, make requirements on age of customers (18 or 21), make pot use while driving equal to DWI, licence commercial grow operations, inspect grow operations for safty, enviormental compliance (FDA and or OSHA can do this) and you will minimize illegal grow operations.

Do you really think pot users would prefer getting their drugs from shady gang members or the Costco while picking up some milk?

Oh and visit Amsterdam if you want to see the horror caused by pot being unleshed unto the populace.  

[Seenterman]

Ok how about some state prison stats. ..

In 1999 there were 251,200 drug ofenders in state prisons incarcerated at a cost of about $5 billion annually.

58% of drug prisoners an estimated 124,885 inmates have no history of violence or high level drug activity.

Four of every five drug prisoners are African American (56%) and Hispanic (23%) well above their respective rates (13% and 9%) of overall drug use.

[ Ok I don't know how that paper established the respective rates of overall drug use since drug use is typically "underground". So I will list an alternate way to compare that statistic]

African Americans only comprise 13.4% of the American population.
Hispanics and Latinos comprise of 14.8% of the American population.

I'll leave it at that, any furthur and I'm going to start treading on hot buttons.

28% of all drug offenders where in prison for simple possession.
::GASP:: And I though people dont go to prison for possession!

http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/dp_distortedpriorities.pdf

Now this paper was done in 2002, lets see how things have changed since then based on arrest stats from 2008. (Most current numbers available.)

New FBI Numbers Show Failure of "War on Drugs"

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- A group of police and judges who want to legalize drugs pointed to new FBI numbers released today as evidence that the "war on drugs" is a failure that can never be won. The data, from the FBI's "Crime in the United States" report, shows that in 2008 there were 1,702,537 arrests for drug law violations, or one drug arrest every 18 seconds.

http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=80


The most frequent arrests made in 2008 were for drug abuse violations (estimated at 1,702,537 arrests). These arrests comprised 12.2 percent of the total number of all arrests.

Today's FBI report, shows that 82.3 percent of all drug arrests in 2008 were for possession only, and 44.3 percent of drug arrests were for possession of marijuana.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/arrests/index.html,

Holy Smokes Batman! Almost 2 million people were arrested for drug violations last year! Of those 1,702,537 people arrested for drug abuse violations 754,224 where for possession of marijuana! I'm guessing locking up over seven hundred thousand people for smoking a plant must really be a worthwhile endevor. And no don't claim these where drug dealers or violent people. They were arrested for possession only. Looks like things are only getting worse.

I think I've done my part, how about a pro-prohibitionist show some evidence on either how other people using drugs affect them, or something to support their arguement instead of a bunch of "I feels" and "I think".

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

don't try to peddle that folks who were convicted of possession didn't plea bargain that down. we would need real facts like what the original charge is and what the deal they plead to was

[Strings]

>I think the most harm I've caused while intoxicated due to marijuana was waking up my SO at 3am because I didn't trust myself with a bread knife. I wanted a sandwich.<

You mean she trusts you with a bread knife at any point?

>don't try to peddle that folks who were convicted of possession didn't plea bargain that down. we would need real facts like what the original charge is and what the deal they plead to was<

He said arrests, not convictions...

[280plus]

Marijuana has been illegal since the 1930's.

My bad, was it LSD maybe? I thought I recalled something about Nixon being the root of the WOD.

Here's an interesting link with what I supposed is factual info.

http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/why-is-marijuana-illegal/

[Matthew Carberry]

Those non-violent drug offenders are also fathers and siblings.  Sending them to prison for years at a time destroys their families and reduces their ability to get jobs afterwards.

We have now lost a couple generations of poor, primarily minority, men who are barely competitive in a modern economy anyway but are now basically unemployable due to being former felons.  The destruction such incarceration over non-violent crimes and normalization of that incarceration among young, essentially fatherless, men has caused in poverty stricken minority families is directly relateable to crime, suicide, use of welfare and undereducation rates in those areas.

This isn't just about drugs, this is about a tidal wave of interlocking sociological calamities that cost much more than just direct incarceration dollars.

All because we know "better" about what individuals should put in their own bodies.

[280plus]

Yea, great plan eh? 

[Lee]

Good points Carebare.  Drug laws (IMHO) are sorta "Atlas Shruggish".  One felony drug bust, and a person becomes a second class citizen, who has diminished control over his own life, and has little, to no ability to influence the government.  How many millions of powerless drug felons are out there now?  And we wonder why urban minority attitudes are so distorted (to us), and neighborhoods are so bad.   

[sanglant]

i just thought this thread could use anutter song

[280plus]

Now I'm really sad I skipped GC when he was here.   

Next time for sure!

[Tuco]

i just thought this thread could use anutter song

Do this one first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye3ecDYxOkg

and the original
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql0IB1zv2MA

[PTK]

...........sweet..... baby.... Jesus.  

Several artists recorded the song in 1971, apparently thinking it was a gospel song.

 

[280plus]

"One toke over the line" on Lawrence Welk. NOW I have seen everything! 

Uh 1, anna 2...

[sanglant]

2 more!!!

you don't know how it feels

Mary Jane's last dance

 

edit: now i'm wishing my harmonica still worked

[Firethorn]

Was listening on the radio to a NPR commentary on weed...

Had a thought:  They were talking about HUGE numbers of homes running grow ops in their houses. 

100 square feet of weed growing via grow lights vs saving, what, 10-30% of the electricity used by a big screen TV?

Legalize weed, get them growing it in actual farms, or at least the backyard vs inside via expensive grow lights.

You'd save more electricity that way.

[Matthew Carberry]

You're saying the economies of scale and consistency of a few professional, legal, greenhouse grow operation with easy access to the lawful distribution network will be more environmentally sound and cost effective than multiple hidden illegal indoor and outdoor (National Park) grow sites?

That's crazy talk. 

[gunsmith]

well, I do not believe in med mj , well .. more like I just think it has as much med use as beer.
however I do think it is well past time to legalize it.

WRT the first post, open med use of MJ is common in SF

[KD5NRH]

well, I do not believe in med mj , well .. more like I just think it has as much med use as beer.

So you're saying they need to make it stronger?

When I came home from work yesterday with a sore throat, the quickest solution (and most effective) available was a glass of brandy.  Clearly, then, you're saying that we need a high-powered extract of weed for medicinal use.