Author Topic: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record  (Read 7561 times)

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« on: November 30, 2009, 08:21:19 AM »
http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20091130/ap_on_hi_te/eu_big_bang_machine

Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
By ALEXANDER G. HIGGINS, Associated Press Writer - Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:20AM EST

 CERN: Big Bang machines sets power record (AP)

GENEVA - The world's largest atom smasher on Monday broke the record for proton acceleration previously held by a U.S. lab, sending beams of the particles at 1.18 trillion electron volts around the massive machine.

The Large Hadron Collider eclipsed the previous high of 0.98 1 TeV held by Fermilab, outside Chicago, since 2001, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, also known as CERN, said.

The latest success, which came early in the morning, is part of the preparation to reach even higher levels of energy for significant experiments next year on the make-up of matter and the universe.

It comes on top of a rapid series of operating advances for the $10 billion machine, which underwent extensive repairs and improvements after it collapsed during the opening phase last year.

CERN Director-General Rolf Heuer said early advances in the machine located in a 17-mile (27-kilometer) tunnel under the Swiss-French border have been "fantastic."

"However, we are continuing to take it step by step, and there is still a lot to do before we start physics in 2010," Heuer said in a statement. "I'm keeping my champagne on ice until then."

The organization hopes the next major step will be to collide the proton beams at about 1.2 TeV before Christmas for an initial look at the tiny particles and what forces might be created.

Ultimately, scientists want to create conditions like those 1 trillionth to 2 trillionths of a second after the Big Bang — which scientists think marked the creation of the universe billions of years ago.

Physicists also hope the collider will help them see and understand other suspected phenomena, such as dark matter, antimatter and supersymmetry.

The level reached Monday isn't significantly higher than what Fermilab has been doing, and real advances are not expected until the LHC raises each beam to 3.5 TeV during the first half of next year.

CERN said one of the two small beams of protons first broke the energy level Sunday evening when it was accelerated from the initial operating energy of 450 billion electron volts late Sunday evening.

"Three hours later both LHC beams were successfully accelerated to 1.18 TeV," shortly after midnight, the organization said.

Beams were colliding last week at low energy, to make sure the machine was working properly. But they have yet to be smashed together at higher intensity.

Steve Myers, CERN's research and technology director, said he had been at CERN when it switched on the last major particle accelerator, the Large Electron-Positron collider that operated from 1989-2000.

"I thought that was a great machine to operate, but this is something else," he said. "What took us days or weeks with LEP, we're doing in hours with the LHC. So far, it all augurs well for a great research program."

CERN said operators will continue preparing the 2,000 superconducting magnets and other parts so that the energy can be increased safely.

Attempts to make new discoveries at the LHC are scheduled for the first quarter of 2010, at a collision energy of 7 TeV (3.5 TeV per beam).

The electron volt is an extremely small measure used in particle physics. One TeV is about the energy of the motion of a flying mosquito, but it becomes signficant in the submicroscopic collisions of the collider.

The energy is concentrated in the hairline beams of particles that whiz around the accelerator at near the speed of light. Although apparently small to the outsider, CERN uses a great amount of electricity and powerful equipment to raise the energy of the beam.

The speed can increase only slightly when the accelerator steps up the power, but that raises the force with which the protons will collide, revealing more insight into what makes them up.

It may take several years before the LHC can make the discovery of the elusive Higgs boson, the particle or field that theoretically gives mass to other particles. That is widely expected to deserve the Nobel Prize for physics.

The LHC operates at nearly absolute zero temperature, colder than outer space, which allows the superconducting magnets to guide the protons most efficiently.

Physicists have used smaller, room-temperature colliders for decades to study the atom. They once thought protons and neutrons were the smallest components of the atom's nucleus, but the colliders showed that they are made of quarks and gluons and that there are other forces and particles.

More than 8,000 physicists from labs around the world also have work planned for the Large Hadron Collider. The organization is run by its 20 European member nations, with support from other countries, including observers from Japan, India, Russia and the United States, which have made big contributions.

Avoid cliches like the plague!

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 06:39:06 PM »
Particle accelerator = Flux Capacitor?

Won't be long before they can dump 1.21 Gigawatts into the system, I figure...  =D
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

drewtam

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,985
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2009, 07:29:42 PM »
Particle accelerator = Flux Capacitor?

Won't be long before they can dump 1.21 Gigawatts into the system, I figure...  =D

That would be pretty hard since eV are energy and GW are power.   =D
I’m not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The… tactleneck!

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 62,152
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2009, 07:50:15 PM »
A dangerous particle acceleration gap!  We need to review our duck-and-cover procedures.
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 34,595
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 08:58:31 PM »
Should the black hole that was formed already have destroyed us or will it take a little while?
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

CAnnoneer

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,136
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2009, 09:01:43 PM »
It is no joke that Europeans are taking the lead in fundamental physics. I was an undergraduate when Congress canceled the supercollider in Texas. The effect on the physics majors was more than chilling. I hardly know anyone doing fundamental physics among my class. There is an invisible internal brain drain that people neither see nor want to talk about. Yet, it does have grave implications for our security, future, national defense, and energy.

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2009, 09:20:48 PM »
It is no joke that Europeans are taking the lead in fundamental physics. I was an undergraduate when Congress canceled the supercollider in Texas. The effect on the physics majors was more than chilling. I hardly know anyone doing fundamental physics among my class. There is an invisible internal brain drain that people neither see nor want to talk about. Yet, it does have grave implications for our security, future, national defense, and energy.

I'll echo that.  I was also an undergrad at the time.

The SSC would have put the LHC to shame and would have been done years before hte LHC came online.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 62,152
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2009, 09:58:55 PM »
Should congress be funding science projects?  I'm not waiting to pounce on anyone who says "yes," it just sounds a little big.gov to me.
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

drewtam

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,985
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2009, 10:25:15 PM »
Should congress be funding science projects?  I'm not waiting to pounce on anyone who says "yes," it just sounds a little big.gov to me.

A Randian would say "no".

Personally, I say, "yes". Certain kinds of public research is reasonable to be funded by the STATES. Or even as a cooperative among several states. The only research the fed should fund is directly related to DoD.

And once something becomes economically viable for industry to pick up, the states or fed should sell it and get out of the way. For example: launching satellites and resupply assignments should be sold the highest bidder. NASA should be focused on pure research (going to Mars, running the ISS, etc). But even then, I would suggest that it should be funded solely by willing STATES. Not by the Fed.

The reason I disagree with the so called objectivist, is that I see value in gov't funded pure research with proper oversight.
I’m not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The… tactleneck!

CAnnoneer

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,136
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2009, 02:43:01 PM »
Should congress be funding science projects?  I'm not waiting to pounce on anyone who says "yes," it just sounds a little big.gov to me.

I think it depends on the country. A very small country with very limited resources, but also very limited expectations and responsibilities, can get away with funding virtually nothing other than perhaps some small "maintenance" or "fact-finding" applied science projects, e.g. in ecology, demographics. But, a big modern free industrial nation vying for high-tech markets and having to maintain a modern military cannot compete effectively without heavy investment in science and technology. In the US, such investment is even more necessary, because the high-tech market is one of the few remaining areas where we can still compete successfully.

As far as big government goes, the biggest research agency's (NIH) entire annual budget is equivalent to a couple of weeks of Iraq, or to about 3% of either of the big stimulus packages that DC passed last year and this year. NIH also got less than 1% of ARRA. That is how our wise government spends its money - bailing out inept manufacturers that should be out of business and taking over toxic debts of lobbyist bankers. But actually investing in the economy and the country's future? Not so much. 

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2009, 03:00:52 PM »
A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon, we're talking about real money....
 :-*

PS:
I'm in the "no" camp.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2009, 03:17:29 PM »
After WW2, America sought to reduce the need for large(r) numbers of servicemen by investing in technology that gave an advantage.  I think the returning vets from WW2 had a few choice things to say about the quality of their kit relative to the Germans', who had superior tech in many areas(0).  Those same Germans killed more of our men than we did theirs, too.  Good thing we had sufficient quantity of humans to toss under the German war machine to get ground up.

Also, our adversaries in the Cold War had a decided advantage in numbers.  We needed something to counter that mass of humanity.  Today, it is much hte same.  Serious potential adversaries have men to burn, while our population of men able for service declines proportional to our population(1).

Maintaining a tech edge is not cheap or easy.  To stay on the leading edge, it will cost big bucks.  The alternative(2) is to get a lot more of our folks killed, institute a draft, pull back from and let the world economy shrivel and de-couple, etc.

The SSC was the sort of research that folks like Oppenheimer, Einstein, etc. were involved in prior to WW2: cutting edge investigation as to the nature of matter and its manipulation.  Not something quickly useful for a profit-driven enterprise, unfortunately. 





(0) German were first to deploy and use in battle an IR tank sight.  (Battle of the Bulge)  They also had a superior MMG, jet & rocket aircraft, ballistic & cruise missiles, better tanks (firepower & armor-wise), and other equipment.

(1) A whole lot of things are permanently disqualifying for .mil service.  Any use of AD/ADHD drugs being only one.

(2) Of course it is not binary, but a sliding scale.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2009, 04:23:03 PM »
Quote
Those same Germans killed more of our men than we did theirs, too.
Especially the SS, who already had years of combat experience before the allies landed in France, whereas a large portion of American soldiers were having their first experience with combat. Technology doesn't hurt though either.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2009, 05:13:07 PM »
IMHO, the alternative is to reduce taxes and the size of government, and give private industry an incentive to develop solutions. 
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 34,595
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2009, 06:08:37 PM »
Especially the SS, who already had years of combat experience before the allies landed in France, whereas a large portion of American soldiers were having their first experience with combat. Technology doesn't hurt though either.
Not to mention the issue of defensive versus offensive operations most of the time.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2009, 09:17:10 PM »
IMHO, the alternative is to reduce taxes and the size of government, and give private industry an incentive to develop solutions.  

No argument, here.  That is the way it ought to be.

That second part is pretty much how it has been done, via Request for Proposal and contract award.  That is not a pretty process to see from the inside, though, given all the regulatory and other foolishness.  

I think some less-involved incentives modeled on the X-prize and other innovative techniques ought to be explored.

OTOH, DARPA uses the RFP/contract model and has some interesting results.  DARPA is an entirely different culture from the usual .mill acquisitions bunch, though.  FTR, I have never worked harder in industry and enjoyed my job more than when I was working DARPA projects.
  • DARPA: "Think outside the box for the solution."
  • .mil Acquisitions: "First off, here is your box.  See that you don't get caught taking a peek outside it."
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Devonai

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,656
  • Panic Mode Activated
    • Kyrie Devonai Publishing
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2009, 12:00:22 AM »
I just can't wait to see faster/cheaper antimatter generation and storage.  Those weapons systems aren't going to power themselves!
My writing blog: Kyrie Devonai Publishing

When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

Iain

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,490
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2009, 07:42:18 AM »
IMHO, the alternative is to reduce taxes and the size of government, and give private industry an incentive to develop solutions. 

Privatise NASA?
I do not like, when with me play, and I think that you also

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2009, 07:53:35 AM »
Privatise NASA?

Already in progress.

All hail Genesis!
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2009, 07:55:49 AM »
Privatise NASA?

Hell, at this point, I'm in favor of privatizing Congress....
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2009, 10:28:10 AM »
Privatise NASA?

Unfortunately, NASA is not developing much in the way of tech, these days.  And the private-side competitor to NASA's rebadged SRB as shuttle replacement is likely a superior design.

I would be entirely in favor of re-focusing NASA on tech development and farming out operations.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Iain

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,490
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2009, 10:32:48 AM »
What about historically? Without the Cold War inspired Space Race driving funding and ambition where would space programmes be?
I do not like, when with me play, and I think that you also

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2009, 11:52:34 AM »
Yup, cause if there's one thing history has proven it's that only fed.gov programs can hope to achieve great feats of science.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,032
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2009, 12:16:58 PM »
Yup, cause if there's one thing history has proven it's that only fed.gov programs can hope to achieve great feats of science.

Only when fed.gov makes it illegal for cottage industry to attempt to compete.

-No amateur rocketry of any significance without FAA/Air Force clearance.
-No machine gun research in the cottage industry.

Good thing the FAA wasn't around when the Wright Brothers were trying to fly.  And the ATF wasn't around to stop Browning or Maxim.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Geneva Big Bang machine beats Chicago lab record
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2009, 12:37:23 PM »
What about historically? Without the Cold War inspired Space Race driving funding and ambition where would space programmes be?

Private space launches were banned up until the mid-80's, IIRC.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner