Author Topic: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop  (Read 11794 times)

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47,715
  • I'm an Extremist!
F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« on: December 04, 2009, 10:30:15 AM »
Sorta big deal, or small potatoes? On the one hand, pretty much no one in the public would have even known about this if it hadn't been leaked somehow, so it's hard to work up general public outrage on it. On the other hand, I would guess the F-22s are the pride of the personnel on base who fly and support them, and that they put it there out of respect for the office of the President and in "putting their best foot forward". Seems like a pretty big affront to them, given they were the live audience.

Hard to say if this is something Obama even knew about, or if his staff just did it. Though I'm shocked any of them could identify an F-22. A Sukhoi maybe, but not an F-22.  :laugh:

I put it in the smaller potatoes category, but in the sub-category of yet another, "we don't know jack about military protocols and traditions and we're proud of it" boner move constantly done by this Administration.

---------------------------

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/12/02/exclusive_white_house_aides_insisted_f_22_be_removed_from_obama_speech_venue

Exclusive: White House aides insisted F-22 be removed from Obama speech venue
Wed, 12/02/2009 - 4:08pm

When President Obama spoke to troops at Alaska's Elmendorf Air Force Base last month, the unit there parked a shiny new F-22 fighter plane in the hangar. But according to multiple sources, White House aides demanded the plane be changed to an older F-15 fighter because they didn't want Obama speaking in front of the F-22, a controversial program he fought hard to end.

"White House aides actually made them remove the F-22-said they would not allow POTUS to be pictured with the F-22 in any way, shape, or form," one source close to the unit relayed.

Stephen Lee, a public affairs officer at Elmendorf, confirmed to The Cable that the F-22 was parked in the hangar and then was replaced by an F-15 at the White House's behest.

The airmen there took offense to the Obama aides' demand, sources told The Cable, seeing it as a slight to the folks who are operating the F-22 proudly every day. They also expressed bewilderment that the White House staff would even care so much as to make an issue out of the fact that the F-22 was placed in the hangar with the president.

A White House official, commenting on background basis, told The Cable that yes, there were discussions about which plane or planes would be in the hangar, but that they were not meant as an insult to the pilots and other personnel who work on the F-22. The official couldn't elaborate on why the White House aides felt it necessary to get involved in the matter in the first place.

The official pointed to Obama's speech to the troops that day, where he praised both the 90th Fighter Squadron, known as the "Dicemen," and the 525th Fighter Squadron, the "Bulldogs," both of which operate the F-22.

Even so, the Air Force personnel thought it odd the White House wanted to display the older plane rather than the more advanced plane that, in the eyes of its supporters, represents the latest and greatest in American aviation.

The Obama administration fought hard and successfully to cut off production of the F-22 at 187 planes, a number Defense Secretary Robert Gates endorsed but that was hundreds less than originally planned and about half of the 381 planes Air Force leadership lobbied hard for in the years preceding Obama's inauguration.

"It's one thing to be against further production; quite another to slight the folks who are flying them in the operational world," one source said, adding that "the F-15 pictured was put into service roughly around the same period when Obama graduated from college. It's vintage."

"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

French G.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,274
  • ohhh sparkles!
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009, 10:43:26 AM »
Angry maintainer goes to gate, drags back paint peeling static display F-100, big happy speech, Russian General LOL.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2009, 10:53:19 AM »
Hard to say if this is something Obama even knew about, or if his staff just did it. Though I'm shocked any of them could identify an F-22. A Sukhoi maybe, but not an F-22.  :laugh:

I put it in the smaller potatoes category, but in the sub-category of yet another, "we don't know jack about military protocols and traditions and we're proud of it" boner move constantly done by this Administration.

As it says in the article between the lines, Obama admin trimmed the F-22 project pretty hard.  Would you want a photo op with a project you lobbied as essentially unneeded? 

I kinda agreed with the decision.  $361m per F-22 vs less than $100m per F-35.  Call me odd, but I always preferred having a lot of not quite best than just a handful of the absolute best.  If there is some specific mission that needs F-22's, we have enough for them.  But in our current wars, there is little to no mission requirements involving the F-22.

"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,037
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2009, 11:34:48 AM »
As it says in the article between the lines, Obama admin trimmed the F-22 project pretty hard.  Would you want a photo op with a project you lobbied as essentially unneeded? 
Maybe someone remembers Mondale making a campaign commercial on the deck of an aircraft carrier . . . and Reagan, during a debate, mentioning that Mondale had voted against what he was pictured with back when he was in Congress.

Oops.

(Nah . . . giving them too much credit. I'd say they just didn't want Obama to be pictured with something that shows US strength and military superiority, things that BHO opposes.)
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47,715
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2009, 11:47:33 AM »
My understanding was that the Administration just killed off new F-22s. I thought they were saying they were still supporting the current fleet while choosing to make all new production F-35s? If my facts aren't wrong, it seems like making the speech in front of the F-22 would have shown a commitment to that statement. Or at the very least would have simply been a non-issue.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

longeyes

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,405
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2009, 01:27:40 PM »
The F-22 was too good, so it had to go.  We mustn't bully the rest of the world with our superior war technology.  That would be so wrong.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2009, 01:44:18 PM »
The F-22 was too good, so it had to go.  We mustn't bully the rest of the world with our superior war technology.  That would be so wrong.

 ;/

That's a bit of a stretch.  I don't care for Obama either, but let's not get the new strain of Bush Derangement Syndrome.  Again, his staff probably wanted to avoid a photo op with a project he discontinued.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2009, 02:34:56 PM »
Quote
I kinda agreed with the decision.  $361m per F-22 vs less than $100m per F-35.  Call me odd, but I always preferred having a lot of not quite best than just a handful of the absolute best.  If there is some specific mission that needs F-22's, we have enough for them.  But in our current wars, there is little to no mission requirements involving the F-22.
Depends on the scale. I'd rather one F-22 then two or three F-35's, depending on the mission and who we were facing. Now if you could have, say, ten for the price of one F-22 there would be no question. But at the price scale I find stopping the program cold to have been stupid as scaling back would have been much more appropriate.

Having the best is one of the reasons we've avoid wars with just about anyone capable of giving us a real fight for the past 60 or so years.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Standing Wolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,978
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2009, 03:41:05 PM »
In exactly one word familiar to everyone: petty.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2009, 06:03:29 PM »
As it says in the article between the lines, Obama admin trimmed the F-22 project pretty hard.  Would you want a photo op with a project you lobbied as essentially unneeded? 

I kinda agreed with the decision.  $361m per F-22 vs less than $100m per F-35.  Call me odd, but I always preferred having a lot of not quite best than just a handful of the absolute best.  If there is some specific mission that needs F-22's, we have enough for them.  But in our current wars, there is little to no mission requirements involving the F-22.


Quite right. And it's ALWAYS a good idea to build your military around the last war- after all, isn't that what we learned in 1939?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2009, 06:09:24 PM »
Quite right. And it's ALWAYS a good idea to build your military around the last war- after all, isn't that what we learned in 1939?

Clearly the Germans' vision of planning for the next war did them so much good.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2009, 06:36:13 PM »
Clearly the Germans' vision of planning for the next war did them so much good.

Germany had a Loss Exchange Ratio* greater than one (1.0) with every country they fought.  Their problem was that those countries they fought could bring vastly larger numbers of men and material to bear as they fought the USA, USSR, UK, Canada, & a few others.  Your number, I suspect, do not take into account that Germany fought the others, too.



*  Number of enemy killed divided by number of friendlies killed

Yes. Clearly.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2009, 06:37:13 PM »
Clearly the Germans' vision of planning for the next war did them so much good.

I think they had most of the tactical operational elements more or less correct (CAS, maneuver warfare, etc), they messed up the strategic elements (bombing, motorized logistics, not attacking Russia).

We on the other hand didn't even plan based on the lessons of the last war and had to play catch up the whole time.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2009, 06:41:10 PM »
Yes. Clearly.

Apart from the obvious.



More importantly:

THe United States currently has a 20-30 year edge in aircraft technology over any other nation, even if you were to forget the fleet of 190 F-22's that already has been built. It would take decades for another nation to catch up, and American intelligence/defense analysts would know of such a re-armament as soon as it began.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2009, 06:46:14 PM »
I do agree with you on that.  We're on, what, 4th generation useable stealth in Wing strength and as far as I know the Russkies and Chi-Coms (I get to call them that because I'm older) aren't even on a functional, deployable 2nd Gen.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2009, 06:55:55 PM »
Molehill.  They axed the F22 program, and increased spending on the F35.  The Obama administration is in perpetual campaign mode, and would never be seen in front of military hardware they refused to continue funding.  We do, however, already have a bunch of F22's, and the F35 is no shrinking violet, either.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2009, 07:03:57 PM »
Clearly the Germans' vision of planning for the next war did them so much good.
Their problem was that they had a crazed ego maniac that was more interested in agenda then he was at fighting a war. At the start of the war Germany was far ahead in many areas and only fell behind because Hitler was convinced new development wasn't need it because they were so well advanced. Had Hitler followed better and more sound military tactics, there would likely be no Israel and much of Europe would be flying the German flag.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

grey54956

  • New Member
  • Posts: 80
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2009, 07:59:27 PM »
The F-22 uses Pratt & Whitney engines.  The F-35 uses a Pratt & Whitney engine.

However, General Electric is developing an alternate engine for the F-35.

General Electric has no interest in the F-22.  But, they may still have some opportunity in the alternate engine program for the F-35.  So, the F-22 had to die.

Obama, and the Democrats in general, are in the back pocket of GE.  General Electric owns and runs NBC, which in turn runs MSNBC, the increasingly liberal news outlet.  MSNBC runs pro-liberal news coverage, which helps the Democrats.  The Democrats, in turn, scratch GE's back.  Look at all the "green" technology that GE is pushing.  Also, GE is the go to supplier for healthcare information software.  GE is having the Democrats create new business opportunities for them.  Military, healthcare, enviroment, electricity, transport.  GE is in all of it.  It's all bought and payed for.

I think it may very well be the biggest pay-for-play shenanigans of all time. 
"There are no carefully crafted arguments here, just a sausage-chain of emotional crotch-grabs." - Longeyes

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye and see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain." -- Frank Herbert, Dune

longeyes

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,405
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2009, 08:25:45 PM »
Sometimes luck's more important than good planning.  If the Germans (or the Japanese) had completed work on the atomic bomb, we might not be having this back-and-forth.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2009, 09:46:50 PM »
THe United States currently has a 20-30 year edge in aircraft technology over any other nation, even if you were to forget the fleet of 190 F-22's that already has been built. It would take decades for another nation to catch up, and American intelligence/defense analysts would know of such a re-armament as soon as it began.

I am not sure I agree with that, as there are some aircraft that come close.  I also don;t think that the F22 is hte benchmark for hte USAF, since there are so few of them. 

The Dassault Rafael is in the F22's league, if not quite its equal...and is more capable than the F15.  The Rafael looks like it is as capable as the F16.

The Typhoon is no slouch, either.

MIG35 looks like a contender, too, but more of a latter-day F15.  Su35 looks like it is in the same category as the MIG35.

Espionage, industrial & otherwise, likely has all the methods in the hands of hostiles.  They lack the ability to execute in some cases.

Such a re-armament would require some humint, a skill at which our current intel folks are not particularly good at.  Also, humint operations always get cut when a Democrat gets in office, so our already feeble ops are going to be curtailed if they have not been already.

This ground-pounder would not have minded if the USAF got its full complement of F22s.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

wquay

  • New Member
  • Posts: 78
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2009, 01:37:56 AM »
Their problem was that they had a crazed ego maniac that was more interested in agenda then he was at fighting a war. At the start of the war Germany was far ahead in many areas and only fell behind because Hitler was convinced new development wasn't need it because they were so well advanced. Had Hitler followed better and more sound military tactics, there would likely be no Israel and much of Europe would be flying the German flag.

The Germans had arguably the best army in the world (see Fighting Power, by Van Creveld), and enjoyed technological superiority in many areas for the duration of the war. The Panzer V, the Me 262, and V-2 are just a few examples. The Germans lost for the same reasons the South lost the Civil War.

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2009, 06:49:04 AM »
Quote
The Germans had arguably the best army in the world (see Fighting Power, by Van Creveld), and enjoyed technological superiority in many areas for the duration of the war. The Panzer V, the Me 262, and V-2 are just a few examples. The Germans lost for the same reasons the South lost the Civil War.
At the start of the war, they did. Hitler slashed new development which caused stagnation. Their rifles? Not the best in the world even going into the war. Tanks, sure. But by the end of the war they got hammered by the Russian tanks. Air power was one of the major and more drastic examples in the war, aside from a few advances that were to little to late their air power had been surpassed.

In the end, it came down the the ego of their leader and poor strategic decisions based on a belief in being invincible.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 62,153
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2009, 08:13:23 AM »
At the start of the war, they did. Hitler slashed new development which caused stagnation. Their rifles? Not the best in the world even going into the war.

You are a bad, bad person.  Just for that, my Mauser gets extra hugs today. 
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2009, 08:24:17 AM »
You are a bad, bad person.  Just for that, my Mauser gets extra hugs today. 
:laugh: Good yes. But would you rather go into battle with a bolt action rifle or a nice shiny M1 Garrand?

The "good enough" attitude got Germany into serious trouble once the allies woke up and threw development into high gear. The gap was closed and the allies surpassed much of Germany's advanced weaponry in record time. Aside from getting the first jet fighter into service I can't think of one plane left that the Germans had that wasn't basically outdated by the end of the war even though it was the best going into it. By the time Germany removed it's head from it's anus and began weapons development again it was to little to late.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 62,153
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: F-22 Removed From Obama Speech Backdrop
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2009, 08:30:25 AM »
I'd rather take both to the range on a nice, cool day.   :angel:
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson