Author Topic: Reality vs Culture  (Read 5703 times)

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Reality vs Culture
« on: January 30, 2010, 05:23:54 PM »
A tidy summation of the difference between reality and the fantasy erected by the cultural producers polluters.

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/aklavan/2010/01/28/klavan-on-the-culture-leftist-hollywood-vs-reality/#more-302382
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2010, 05:33:33 PM »
He's really good. And that's really funny! :D

S. Williamson

  • formerly Dionysusigma
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,034
  • It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2010, 05:49:15 PM »
Spot. On.  =)
Quote
"The chances of finding out what's really going on are so remote, the only thing to do is hang the sense of it and keep yourself occupied. I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
"And are you?"
"No, that's where it all falls apart I'm afraid. Pity, it sounds like quite a nice lifestyle otherwise."
-Douglas Adams

Northwoods

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,402
  • Formerly sumpnz
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2010, 12:47:16 AM »
While for the most part he was "Spot. On." he did ignore some violence committed by "right-wingers" or "evangelicals".  Witness some of the bombings/shootings at abortion clinics.  Some were done by religious extremists whose politics I would characterize more as far leftist/fascist/etc than anything else, but not all.

Eric Rudolf would, I think, qualify as a leftist.  James Kopp, maybe, maybe not - can't really tell from my quick scan of the internet. 

Scott Roeder I think would probably be characterized as right wing though.  Granted he was clearly mentally disturbed, if not outright mentally ill, but you can get those sorts in all groups.
Formerly sumpnz

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,523
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2010, 01:16:05 AM »
While for the most part he was "Spot. On." he did ignore some violence committed by "right-wingers" or "evangelicals".  Witness some of the bombings/shootings at abortion clinics.

Maybe "ignoring it" is the proper response to a phenomenon so incredibly rare as to be nearly insignificant.   
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Nitrogen

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,755
  • Who could it be?
    • @c0t0d0s2 / Twitter.
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2010, 04:44:10 AM »
Maybe "ignoring it" is the proper response to a phenomenon so incredibly rare as to be nearly insignificant.   

<Devil's Advocate>
Like flying airplanes into buildings?

</Devil's Advocate>
יזכר לא עד פעם
Remember. Never Again.
What does it mean to be an American?  Have you forgotten? | http://youtu.be/0w03tJ3IkrM

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,882
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2010, 08:32:53 AM »
<Devil's Advocate>
Like flying airplanes into buildings?

</Devil's Advocate>

When a stadium with 3000+ abortionists gets blown up by an "evangelical" get back to me...

If there have been a half dozen doctors murdered since RvW I would be surprised.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 08:37:51 AM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2010, 12:13:22 PM »
When a stadium with 3000+ abortionists gets blown up by an "evangelical" get back to me...

If there have been a half dozen doctors murdered since RvW I would be surprised.

You're almost right. 8 people had been murdered. There's been a vast amount of arson/bombing/death threat/attempted murder cases, however.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Northwoods

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,402
  • Formerly sumpnz
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 12:32:59 PM »
When a stadium with 3000+ abortionists gets blown up by an "evangelical" get back to me...

If there have been a half dozen doctors murdered since RvW I would be surprised.

While they've only succeeded in killing 4 docs, plus 4 others working at clinics, there were a lot of other attempts.
From the article below there were 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons of clinics since 1976.  I don't know of too many other industries in this country that have been subject to that much targeted violence.

In terms of my politics my libertarian streak leads me to not support outlawing the procedure given that this country can't seem to agree on when a baby achieves standing as a human being.  Should outlawing it become a majority preference I most certainly won't stand in the way of that.  But I think the best way to get rid of abortion would be to convince women contemplating doing that to instead choose life.  Give them the support and love they need.  Work towards a culture that values the lives of the unborn.  Then you don't need to outlaw it.

Murdering abortion docs, and bombing/burning the clinics is ultimately not going to accomplish anything towards the goal of ending the practice.

All that said, there are plenty of of people that describe themselves as right-wing and/or evengelical who engage in such violent behavior.  Compared to the left side of the spectrum, yeah, it's not as much.  Still not a good idea to completely ignore it when trying to vilify the left and lionize the right.  When you fail to acknowledge your side's moral failures your arguemnet loses a lot of credibility, especially with those on the fence.

From our favorite source for accurate, unbiased info - Wikipedia

Quote
In the U.S., violence directed toward abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.[5]

March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Dr. Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.
August 21, 1993 Dr. George Patterson, was shot and killed in Mobile, Alabama, but it is uncertain whether his death was the direct result of his profession or rather a robbery.[6] [7]
July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside of another facility in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed September 3, 2003.
December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi, who prior to his arrest was distributing pamphlets from Human Life International,[8] was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.
January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.
October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Dr. Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.
May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed as he served as an usher at his church in Wichita, Kansas.[9]
[edit] Attempted murder, assault, and threats
According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[10] The attempted murders were:[5][11][12]

August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
July 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.
December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the same-day shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.
October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.[13]
January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.
[edit] Anthrax threats
The first anthrax hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting, and since then, there have been a total of 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the "anthrax" in these cases was real.[11][14]

November 2001: After the genuine 2001 anthrax attacks, Clayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare on December 3, 2003.
[edit] Arson, bombing, and property crime
According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[10] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[15] More recent incidents have included:[5]

December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."[16][17][18]
October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison.[19]
May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire on resulted in damage estimated at US$20,000. The case remains unsolved.[20]
September 30, 2000: A Catholic priest drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being shot at by a security guard.[21]
June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in US$6000 in damages.[19]
July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open.[19]
December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a “memorial lamp” for an abortion she had had there.[22]
September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions, however Edgerton is not an abortion clinc.[23]
April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building. Paul Ross Evans (who had a criminal record for armed robbery and theft) was found guilty of the crime.[24]
May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.[25]
December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Altman’s girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.[26]
January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness [27] rammed a SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.[28]
Formerly sumpnz

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,389
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 05:36:15 PM »
In terms of my politics my libertarian streak leads me to not support outlawing the procedure given that this country can't seem to agree on when a baby achieves standing as a human being.  Should outlawing it become a majority preference I most certainly won't stand in the way of that.  But I think the best way to get rid of abortion would be to convince women contemplating doing that to instead choose life.  Give them the support and love they need.  Work towards a culture that values the lives of the unborn.  Then you don't need to outlaw it.

Our culture does value the lives of the unborn. But, as you point out, there is not agreement as to when an unborn fetus becomes a "person" in the eyes of the law. Personally, I can't support outlawing abortion even if a majority of the populace agree. I don't believe in abortion, but I do believe in the right of each individual to believe as he/she chooses. Outlawing abortion because 51 percent of the populace believes an unborn fetus is a "person" is about as close as I can imagine to establishing a state religion. It certainly infringes the right of those who do not so believe to practice their religion in accordance with their beliefs.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 05:48:24 PM »
If the problem is that the country cannot agree on whether abortion is murder, then the correct response would be to allow locals to decide for themselves what to do regarding abortion laws.  Having the question answered extra-constitutionally by 7 unelected oligarchs is not the appropriate response.

Consider it another "reality vs culture" issue.  In reality there's nothing in the constitution about abortion, therefore it should be left up to the states.  In culture abortion is an ironclad irrefutable constitutional right.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 05:56:36 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 06:04:15 PM »
There's also nothing in the Constitution about any right for you to choose the education of your children. Clearly California may ban homeschooling if it so chooses. There's also no right to adultery, to ownership of an automobile (after all, driving is certainly not a right!) and there's absolutely no right to marriage.


Happily the Constitution does not, and has never worked like that and, and certainly not after 1865.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2010, 06:07:16 PM »
What part of the state constitution of California allows them to ban homeschooling, adultery, etc?

I admit I've never read the Cali state constitution, so for all I know banning such things may actually be a power of that state.  But I doubt it.  And even if it was one of the state's powers, I would expect that power to rest with the legislature rather than the judiciary, same as with the fed gov.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 06:24:06 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2010, 06:38:01 PM »
So you do not think it is possible that an individual US state would do any of these things?

Any of the things I listed were done, at some point or another, by some state.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2010, 06:58:10 PM »
So you're saying the fact that a government can do something means it has just authority to do it?

I don't dispute that FedGov has the practical ability to impose abortion law on the states.  I dispute that they have the right to do so.

7 members of the Supreme Court did impose abortion law on every state in the nation.  7 members of the Supreme Court should not have that power, and if they should happen to acquire that power, they should not wield it.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2010, 07:36:59 PM »
So what you're saying is, if a given state constitution allows it, it can be done? The 9th Amendment isn't binding against the states at all?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2010, 08:11:24 PM »
What I'm saying is that governments sometimes do things they aren't empowered to, such as Roe v Wade.  

In this case, the 10th amendment is far more applicable than the 9th.  Abortion is not a Federal matter, leave it to the states or to the people to decide according to their processes.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2010, 08:14:37 PM »
I'm very tempted to accept your argument, given my position on abortion. But it seems to me that this way lies madness.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

RaspberrySurprise

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,020
  • Yub yub Commander
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2010, 08:19:43 PM »
I think part of the problem Micro is that it seems that you see the government having any power not barred from it by the Constitution, whereas HTG's positions seems to be that the gummint only has those powers specifically granted to it by said document.
Look, tiny text!

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2010, 08:23:50 PM »
I think part of the problem Micro is that it seems that you see the government having any power not barred from it by the Constitution, whereas HTG's positions seems to be that the gummint only has those powers specifically granted to it by said document.

1. The Constitution explicitly says that the rights of individuals are not solely the rights listed in the Constitution. The 9th Amendment is not a blot.

2. The Constitution explicitly says that the rights of individuals are secured against the States and the Federal government. The 14th Amendment says so explicitly

THe Founding Fathers had never intended - and the Reconstructionists had never intended - to limit man's rights to only a short list of rights. To limit individual rights to a short (and limited) set of rights outlined explicitly by the Constitution is exactly what the Founding Fathers warned about.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2010, 08:49:10 PM »
Your focus on the 9th is misplaced.  Yes, it says that not all rights are enumerated.  It does NOT say that everything not enumerated is a right.  It does NOT say that the states are powerless to act in all areas not enumerated by the federal constitution.

The 10th recognizes that there are other legitimate powers that exist, powers not specifically mentioned elsewhere in the constitution, powers that do not belong to FedGov.  You cannot say that because something is out of bounds for FedGov it must be a right that is untouchable by the states.

As a simple example, consider that laws against murder aren't a matter for federal authorities, but they are a matter for states.  Are you going to say that because murder isn't a Federal matter, the states can't touch it either?  Or that murder is one of the non-enumerated rights protected by the 9th?

FedGov cannot criminalize a murder that took place in Georgia, but Georgia certainly can.  Abortion (being basically a question of murder laws) is no different.  So long as a state's laws on murder (or abortion, or anything else) don't run afoul of the federal constitution, the federal SC shouldn't step in and interfere.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 09:00:01 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2010, 08:59:20 PM »
So, exactly what does the 9th Amendment do?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2010, 09:02:25 PM »
It prevents [deleted] from claiming the only rights we have are free speech, RKBA, no quartering of troops, etc.

There's a difference between saying we have other rights not mentioned, and saying that everything not mentioned is a right.

Edited for language.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 09:14:28 PM by Gewehr98 »

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2010, 09:03:18 PM »
It prevents [deleted] from claiming the only rights we have are free speech, RKBA, no quartering of troops, etc.

There's a difference between saying we have other rights not mentioned, and saying that everything not mentioned is a right.

Quite nice.

So, how do we determine what those "other rights" not mentioned are?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 09:14:40 PM by Gewehr98 »
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Reality vs Culture
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2010, 09:04:52 PM »
Look to the 10th.  It says that anything not mentioned is up to the states and their people to decide for themselves.

States have their own consitutions which grant enumerated powers to the state.  I think it's fair to say that any potential power that isn't granted to FedGov by the federal constitution, or granted to your state gov by your state constitution, is an illegitimate power that cannot be exercised against the people.  That's a decent practical definition non-enumerated rights, assuming that both constitutions are set up justly and properly.

In my mind it goes back to the Age of Reason philosophers talking about man in nature vs man in society.  In nature we can do anything we want, everything is our right.  We give up certain rights to enjoy the benefits of living in a civil society.  But we only give up certain rights.  Anything we haven't given up still belongs to us.

To bring it full circle, we never gave the federal Supreme Court any authority to decide on matters of abortion vs murder.  As such, deciding on abortion/murder isn't within their realm of legitimate actions, it's still our right to exercise as we please (probably by giving authority over murder/abortion to our state).
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 09:22:37 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »