Media unable to voice what Tea Party really is

[MicroBalrog]

"You cannot force me to agree with you. You can make me act as if I agree with you. But then you will have to watch your back. All the time."

[Perd Hapley]

Again, you're missing the axis that actually matters when it comes to Left/Right and Tea-Party. 

I'm not missing it at all.  I'm just observing how the Libertarian Tea Partyers want it to be a Libertarian movement, the conservative Tea Partyers want it to be a conservative movement, and so on.  We'd all like to think that the massive groundswell of public opinion and agitation is all on our side. 

As for this "new axis," meh.  My conservatism is your up/down axis.  Call it what you will.  Lately, I've come to call it "American." 

[MicroBalrog]

As for this "new axis," meh.  My conservatism is your up/down axis.  Call it what you will.  Lately, I've come to call it "American."

So you're implying that conservatives are the only real Americans? 

[taurusowner]

So you're implying that conservatives are the only real Americans? 

I think it is safe to say that those who identify most with the ideals of the Founding Fathers are the closest things to what American's should be.  Take that how you will.

[MicroBalrog]

I think it is safe to say that those who identify most with the ideals of the Founding Fathers are the closest things to what American's should be.  Take that how you will.

Which Founding Fathers? :D

[alex_trebek]

Which Founding Fathers? :D

Doesn't matter. They all agreed on everything and were 100% accurate. You will not question them.

/sticks fingers in ears

LA LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU. 

[Perd Hapley]

So you're implying that conservatives are the only real Americans?  

That sounds funny to you?

I'm saying that the political views we call "conservative" are simply American political views.  Those we call "liberal" are a retreat away from Americanism, and hence away from enlightenment, etc.  

I've been uncomfortable with the "conservative" label for some time.  It doesn't describe my side very well.  

I think it is safe to say that those who identify most with the ideals of the Founding Fathers are the closest things to what American's should be.  Take that how you will.

Something like that.  Naturally, the FFs were not all in lockstep, but we all know very well that they promoted certain ideas.

[MicroBalrog]

That sounds funny to you?

It sounds ahistorical.

I don't think, for example, that Tom Paine would always agree with those who are called conservative today - he supported social welfare, AFAIK. I don't think Thomas JEfferson would  - but then he and Hamilton always disagreed with each other on some pretty key issues. And then, in post-Founder ages, there were incredible amounts of people who held a variety of different views who are considered broadly all-American, from Lysander Spooner the anarchist to the socialist who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance. I can see how you can say totalitarianism is UnAmerican, and that would be perfectly fair, but I think what you implied goes far beyond that.

[alex_trebek]

That sounds funny to you?

I'm saying that the political views we call "conservative" are simply American political views.  Those we call "liberal" are a retreat away from Americanism, and hence away from enlightenment, etc.  

I've been uncomfortable with the "conservative" label for some time.  It doesn't describe my side very well.  


Something like that.  Naturally, the FFs were not all in lockstep, but we all know very well that they promoted certain ideas.

conservative doesn't sound as cool as liberal, therefore the definition had to be changed.

Once I told a "liberal" that in some parts of the world, I would be considered extremely liberal because I believe in individual rights to an almost unreasonable extent.

The word "disheartened" best describes to look on her face.

[taurusowner]

Something like that.  Naturally, the FFs were not all in lockstep, but we all know very well that they promoted certain ideas.

Exactly.  I'm not talking a placement of the comma disagreements here, or even personal beliefs of the FFs.  But they came together and wrote/signed the documents that are the foundation of our country.  There are certain ideals enshrined in those documents, and most of us on APS are well aware of those ideals.  It is no secret that a portion of US Citizens have it among their goals to pull this nation as far away from those ideals as possible.  I do not consider those Citizens to be real Americans.  Of course it doesn't fall perfectly down party lines, but it is safe to say that a disproportionate percentage of these people are members of one political party over the other.

Again, MicroBalrog, I'm not talking about whatever personal beliefs the FF's might have held.  The fact is, they did come together and author/sign the founding documents.  I don't consider anyone who disagrees with the ideals of those documents to be a real American, no matter what their birth certificate might say.

Let me ask you this: If you were voting in an election, and you knew one candidate was for strict gun control, and the other candidate was for repealing some gun control laws, but you didn't know which, or even who their names were; all you knew is that Candidate A is a Republican and Candidate B is a Democrat, which one would you think is in favor of more gun control vs less?

[MicroBalrog]

We all know leftists are evil.

The ideology of the Left has a variety of different colors and shades, but whatever merits it may have had at inception, whatever good things they've actually happened to accomplish, they've all been in pursuit of their absolutely evil ideology. THeir goal is to destroy and subsume everything that's good about Western civilization. And the more their ideology advances and develops, the more it becomes more evil.

But we already know it. I know it and, you know it, and Fistful knows that too. But now he argues that the only legitimate brand of ideology is conservatism. I'm entirely not at home with conservatism either. I think it has, in the past, failed to tackle the Left with the aggression needed, and (as it is well known here and rehashing the specifics would take us off-topic) I disagree with conservative policy prescriptions on a variety of issues, and more importantly (as also would take us off-topic) I have several philosophical and ethical problems with it. THe idea that this is now the only legitimate ideology, I think that is problematic.

[taurusowner]

The essence of conservatism is the preservation of the ideals that founded this nation.  That is why it is valid, and the best opposition to Leftism.

[Perd Hapley]

But now he argues that the only legitimate brand of ideology is conservatism.

Where did I say that?  I said that, in the struggle between Left and Right, the Right is American, the Left is anti-American.  I didn't comment on those who see themselves as being outside the left-right divide. 


Let's not be silly.  The point is that the leftist platform is anti-American, while the "conservatives" have an American view of government.  

It sounds ahistorical.

I don't think, for example, that Tom Paine would always agree with those who are called conservative today - he supported social welfare, AFAIK. I don't think Thomas JEfferson would  - but then he and Hamilton always disagreed with each other on some pretty key issues. And then, in post-Founder ages, there were incredible amounts of people who held a variety of different views who are considered broadly all-American, from Lysander Spooner the anarchist to the socialist who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance. I can see how you can say totalitarianism is UnAmerican, and that would be perfectly fair, but I think what you implied goes far beyond that.

As I said, the Founders disagreed on many things, but there were some principles they did happen to establish in our laws and traditions.  Of course, it also depends on who you consider "Founding Fathers."

[mellestad]

Don't you think that saying, "only conservatives hold American ideals" is simplifying reality a little?  You have to establish what conservative is, what American is (since your definition is not citizenship), what religions you support, which founding fathers you happen to include and what parts of their opinions you happen to like, which laws are good, which are bad, what supreme court decisions are good and bad....it just seems like a blanket statement that is a bit too broad, especially since words like 'conservative' are moving targets, and people cannot even agree on what the founding fathers actually wanted without resorting projecting their own opinions on historical figures willy-nilly.

Maybe some sort of manifesto is in order...but I imagine you would end up with either a) a document no-one agreed with or b) something so soft and wishy-washy that it didn't mean anything.

I could be wrong though, maybe there is a universal definition that actually has application and I just missed it.

[Perd Hapley]

Don't you think that saying, "only conservatives hold American ideals" is simplifying reality a little? 

Did someone say that? 

[MicroBalrog]

Did someone say that? 

As for this "new axis," meh.  My conservatism is your up/down axis.  Call it what you will.  Lately, I've come to call it "American."

Let's not be silly.  The point is that the leftist platform is anti-American, while the "conservatives" have an American view of government. 

[Perd Hapley]

Some of us need to read for comprehension. 

[mellestad]

So is that not what was said?  Did I summarize incorrectly?

[Perd Hapley]

It's not what I said.

[mellestad]

*shrug* ok, I must be confused.

[Perd Hapley]

OK, then.  Why did you think I said that only conservatives are real Americans? 

I've said that what we call conservatism is better described as a belief in American principles of government.  I've said that the left is anti-American.  Interestingly, those two things do not add up to what some people want them to. 

[BridgeRunner]

Ah, debates on the internets: a sport where we can, by the creation of a multitude of distinctions with no difference, spend all day trying to convince others they are wrong.  About something.  At some point, no one can quite tell about what, but it's really the wrongness that matters, after all.

[Perd Hapley]

No, you're quite wrong there. 

[zahc]

The essence of conservatism is the preservation of the ideals that founded this nation. 

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. You may be confusing modern "conservativeism" with the ideals that actually founded this nation, now called "classical liberalism"

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Conservatism is the same thing as classical liberalism.

Lately there are many people trying to pervert or confuse the concept of conservatism, and many people claiming to be conservative who aren't.  Don't let it confuse you.  Conservatism is classical liberalism.