Author Topic: The Sheer Brutality of the Law  (Read 2880 times)

roo_ster

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The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« on: February 22, 2010, 12:22:10 PM »
I am less and less able to rationalize some legislator / law enforcement / regulator / bureaucrat actions as misguided but well-intentioned or somehow not motivated by evil. 

The following is a blog posting by Megan McArdle with references to another article.  I'll excerpt the former in its entirety and the latter in part (though I suggest reading it in full).



http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2010/02/the_majesty_of_the_law.php

The Majesty of the Law

19 Feb 2010 04:12 pm
I've read a lot about prohibition, but I never read about the government's deliberate effort to make industrial alcohol undrinkably poisonous. Thousands of people seem to have died as a result.

I wish I could say I found it surprising, but it seem to me to be of a piece with too many other brutalities in American law.  We pass a law with the best of intentions, and find it doesn't work, and so we pass new regulations and policies designed to crack down on non-compliance, until we are brutalizing the population all out of proportion to the original good we were pursuing.  Consider the way we have cracked down on pain medications, impeding the effectiveness of pain control for people in chronic agony out of the fear that somewhere, someone might be getting high.  Or the terrifying authority we've handed the IRS, because if anyone gets away with cheating on their taxes, the terrorists will have won, or something.




http://www.slate.com/id/2245188/

The Chemist's War

The little-told story of how the U.S. government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition with deadly consequences.
By Deborah Blum

...

Rigorous enforcement had managed to slow the smuggling of alcohol from Canada and other countries. But crime syndicates responded by stealing massive quantities of industrial alcohol—used in paints and solvents, fuels and medical supplies—and redistilling it to make it potable.

...

Frustrated that people continued to consume so much alcohol even after it was banned, federal officials had decided to try a different kind of enforcement. They ordered the poisoning of industrial alcohols manufactured in the United States, products regularly stolen by bootleggers and resold as drinkable spirits. The idea was to scare people into giving up illicit drinking. Instead, by the time Prohibition ended in 1933, the federal poisoning program, by some estimates, had killed at least 10,000 people.

...

By mid-1927, the new denaturing formulas included some notable poisons—kerosene and brucine (a plant alkaloid closely related to strychnine), gasoline, benzene, cadmium, iodine, zinc, mercury salts, nicotine, ether, formaldehyde, chloroform, camphor, carbolic acid, quinine, and acetone. The Treasury Department also demanded more methyl alcohol be added—up to 10 percent of total product. It was the last that proved most deadly.

The results were immediate, starting with that horrific holiday body count in the closing days of 1926. Public health officials responded with shock. "The government knows it is not stopping drinking by putting poison in alcohol," New York City medical examiner Charles Norris said at a hastily organized press conference. "[Y]et it continues its poisoning processes, heedless of the fact that people determined to drink are daily absorbing that poison. Knowing this to be true, the United States government must be charged with the moral responsibility for the deaths that poisoned liquor causes, although it cannot be held legally responsible."




Did y'all catch that?  A deliberate gov't policy resulted in 10,000 deaths.  I wonder why is it so difficult to believe that gov't intervention in, say, the economy can bring down a sector of the economy when gov't has been willing to make policy that they know will end in the death of citizens?

Today, we see similar thinking by gov't officials with regard to prescription painkillers.  Most opiates are spiked with tylenol, so that if they are abused the abuser is poisoned and their liver is destroyed.  How many people die each year form abusing opiates spiked with tylenol?

Then there is the case of morphine vs heroin as a painkiller.  Both are effective, though heroin is more effective vs pain and has fewer deleterious side effects, like stopping peristalsis in the intestines (IOW, morphine will stop ones digestive system from moving food/etc. on down the line).  My dad recently had lung cancer surgery.  The surgery itself went fairly well, but has spent the last two months in & out of the hospital, partly with complications due to the cessation of peristalsis caused by morphine.  He has lost 30+ lbs he could ill afford not due to chemotherapy, radiation & such (because he has not received such treatment), but because our regulators think heroin too addictive.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Ned Hamford

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2010, 12:27:43 PM »
Leviathan will eat you.
Improbus a nullo flectitur obsequio.

AJ Dual

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2010, 12:33:31 PM »
The only way to fix this is not APS/TOS/COC compliant.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2010, 02:17:27 PM »
The truth is this:

For many people in our society, drug users are less than human. I mean it literally. They imagine drug users as this collective junky, flea-ridden, dangerous, semi-criminal. THey rationalize this in various way, but they don't care when 'junkies' die or get poisoned or have their lives destroyed. The most common one is "they accepted the risks when they started taking drugs, so the fact we're doing our level best to increase the risks for them doesn't mean it's our fault they died."
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"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Blakenzy

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2010, 03:42:58 PM »
Who said government sponsored prohibition is meant to do good?

Education is for your own good, prohibition is about control.
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

PTK

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2010, 03:47:36 PM »
How is any of this new or surprising? We do not live in a free country.
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
September 1915 - August 2008

"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

taurusowner

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2010, 03:52:54 PM »
Quote
products regularly stolen by bootleggers

Well there you have it.

Northwoods

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2010, 03:54:51 PM »
New Zealand still does this.  All industrial ethanol has to be what they call "methylated spirits" which means that they add methanol and usually some other chemical that changes the boiling points of the alcohols to make it nearly impossible to distill the methanol out of the solution.  This is becuase it is legal in NZ to distill your own potable alcohols.  

However it is all very clearly labeled as so and they did do a big effort to educate people that such alcohol, commonly referred to as "meths" there is poisonous.  
Formerly sumpnz

taurusowner

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2010, 03:59:10 PM »
We still do this right now with ethanol for vehicles.  The 15% gas is added so it's not 100% ethanol.  So what?  I don't consider people getting themselves killed over idiocy to be anyone's fault but their own.

PTK

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2010, 04:00:59 PM »
What I really dislike about all these laws are that anyone wanting to do chemistry has to get a freaking alcohol license from the BATFE if they want lab grade EtOH.
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
September 1915 - August 2008

"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

MechAg94

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2010, 05:53:11 PM »
New Zealand still does this.  All industrial ethanol has to be what they call "methylated spirits" which means that they add methanol and usually some other chemical that changes the boiling points of the alcohols to make it nearly impossible to distill the methanol out of the solution.  This is becuase it is legal in NZ to distill your own potable alcohols.  

However it is all very clearly labeled as so and they did do a big effort to educate people that such alcohol, commonly referred to as "meths" there is poisonous.  
It is legal to make your own alcoholic drinks in the US as well, but you can't sell it I believe. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

PTK

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2010, 05:57:12 PM »
You can BREW up to X number of gallons of wine/beer.

You can not distill by heat/freezing/any other means into a higher % alcohol, legally, in the US, without a specific manufacturing permit from the BATFE. Period.
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
September 1915 - August 2008

"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

RevDisk

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2010, 05:59:08 PM »

Well.   This is what governments do.  That's like getting mad at a cat for scratching up the furniture or a dog for chewing up your favorite set of slippers.  You can scream and wave your finger all you want, it's not going to change the fundamental nature of the animal.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

brimic

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2010, 06:20:13 PM »
Quote
New Zealand still does this.  All industrial ethanol has to be what they call "methylated spirits" which means that they add methanol and usually some other chemical that changes the boiling points of the alcohols to make it nearly impossible to distill the methanol out of the solution.  This is becuase it is legal in NZ to distill your own potable alcohols.

They still do this here. They usually add MEK or Methanol to make it undrinkable. You can buy Absolute Grade which is 100% pure ethanol, but like PTK said, you need a license and you need to keep very, very accurate records of its usage (Trust me, the DEA is less stringent with handling of narcotic materials). This licensing and tracking is very important because it perpetuates the 'need' for more Federal authorites.

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Jamisjockey

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2010, 06:36:33 PM »
I don't give two hoots if it was stolen, and if drinking was illegal.  Tell me, how on earth is it moral or ethical for a government to POISON the alcohol and kill its own citizens.  I  :'( for some of you.
JD

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RevDisk

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2010, 08:06:32 PM »
I don't give two hoots if it was stolen, and if drinking was illegal.  Tell me, how on earth is it moral or ethical for a government to POISON the alcohol and kill its own citizens.  I  :'( for some of you.


Ah.  Dude?  You are asking for morality and ethics from a government?

The sadder thing is, few governments would intentionally wish to poison thousands of its own citizens.  Well, you know what I mean.  It's a mixture of incompetence and lack of incentives to do the right thing.  No employee would likely get fired for mandating poisoning of US citizens, so they don't particularly care.  They're just in it for the paycheck at the end of the day.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2010, 08:37:32 PM »
I don't give two hoots if it was stolen, and if drinking was illegal.  Tell me, how on earth is it moral or ethical for a government to POISON the alcohol and kill its own citizens.  I  :'( for some of you.

One big issue is that if you tax all alcohol at the same rate, it'll be too expensive for certain uses - including gasoline. If you tax drinking alcohol at a high rate, you have to make sure that people don't get their liquor without paying the tax.
Our .gov has a history of very strong opinions on the subject of alcohol taxes. Even Washington wasn't above mobilizing an army (!) to take down people who didn't want to pay their liquor taxes.

Jamisjockey

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2010, 08:40:57 PM »
One big issue is that if you tax all alcohol at the same rate, it'll be too expensive for certain uses - including gasoline. If you tax drinking alcohol at a high rate, you have to make sure that people don't get their liquor without paying the tax.
Our .gov has a history of very strong opinions on the subject of alcohol taxes. Even Washington wasn't above mobilizing an army (!) to take down people who didn't want to pay their liquor taxes.

Taxing and enforcing taxes are one thing, even if I don't agree at all with them, but poisioning?!?  Holy schnikes!  Of course, our .gov also sat GIs in the blast zones of the Nuclear tests to see how the radiation would affect them.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Fjolnirsson

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2010, 09:00:53 PM »
I'd rather they set up ambushes at the warehouses and shot anyone stupid enough to break in. Poisoning your own citizens is despicable.
Hi.

RevDisk

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2010, 09:05:29 PM »
Taxing and enforcing taxes are one thing, even if I don't agree at all with them, but poisioning?!?  Holy schnikes!  Of course, our .gov also sat GIs in the blast zones of the Nuclear tests to see how the radiation would affect them.

Ah.  Perhaps you'd not like to hear the long history of using orphans and foster care kids as guinea pigs?  They have stopped doing that.  In 2001.   
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

PTK

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2010, 09:19:33 PM »
When did that stop? I honestly thought the FDA program of using kids as medicine testers was still up and running. I was part of it in 2001/2002, in fact.
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
September 1915 - August 2008

"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

GigaBuist

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2010, 09:28:42 PM »
Ah.  Perhaps you'd not like to hear the long history of using orphans and foster care kids as guinea pigs?  They have stopped doing that.  In 2001.   

- Forced sterilization existed until 1976.  North Carolina was the last state to give it up.
- The MKULTRA and MHCHAOS projects were despicable.  There's just no good way to summarize all the crap that went on in them.  In MKULTRA a woman that went to a Canadian psych clinic for mild depression was kept in a drug induced coma for up to 3 months at a time, had humiliating stories from her past repeated while she slept, and was woken up with electro-shock therapy.  Our government did that.  It was proven in court.  Why?  To see what would happen.
- WWII internment

And people think I'm weird for not always trusting the government.

Fjolnirsson

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Re: The Sheer Brutality of the Law
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2010, 09:53:28 PM »
Ah.  Perhaps you'd not like to hear the long history of using orphans and foster care kids as guinea pigs?  They have stopped doing that.  In 2001.  

Oh no, I already knew about that one. I'd actually heard of the alcohol poisoning years ago, as well. Then of course, there's Project MK-ULTRA. Hmm, that'll teach me to reply before reading all of a thread. I see Justin beat me to it.
Hi.