Now that Hamas has seized control of the Palestinian Authority...

[chaim]

My initial reaction to Hamas' election is that Israel needs to be mobilizing its military and readying for invasion.  It needs to re-occupy all the territory, take back control of the media and education estabilishments (institutions that have been used for more than a decade by the PA to instill hatred of Jews and anti-Israel propaganda) and hold onto it for another generation (it will take at least a generation of education to undue a generation of propaganda).  However, it isn't realistic- a post-election poll shows that 48% of Israelis want the goverment to continue negotiations with the Palestinians while only 43% think the "peace process" is dead with the Hamas government of the PA.

Anyway, in reality not much has changed.  Fatah/the PA was an outgrowth of the PLO.  The PLO was (and never really ceased to be) a very bloodthirsty terrorist group.  The outgoing PA leader was the main financier of the Munich murders.  Even today, "The Al Aqsa Brigade", a wing of Fatah, has been involved (either alone, or in conjunction with Hamas and Islamic Jihad) in the majority of the attacks in Israel that have resulted in deaths.  The only difference with Hamas is that they don't pretend to be anything other than what they are.

[Dannyboy]

I'm very interested to see how this will affect the upcoming Israeli elections.  With Sharon out of the picture, and Hamas in power I think this could be a good opportunity for Likud and Netanyahu to get back into the picture.  What do y'all think?

[Antibubba]

Hamas is now calling for the formation of a Palestinian Army.

Guess nothing is going to change-except for the number of dead Palestinians.

[Guest]

I wonder how many people will die as a direct result of this Palestinian election and I wonder how that number would compare to OUR last election.

[stevelyn]

Hamas is now calling for the formation of a Palestinian Army.

They're an independent state now, they have a right to form a miltary force like any other country. Why should they be denied the right to defend themselves?

[toro]

stevelyn
Maybe an army is a bad idea because they love to blow things up.  They not only hate the Jews they also hate the Christians.  I'll bet they are over here in no time to blow us up.  Will you change your mind then?  Or do you want to fight on their ground?

                                                     Mrs. Toro


===============================
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

[The Rabbi]

Hamas is now calling for the formation of a Palestinian Army.

They're an independent state now, they have a right to form a miltary force like any other country. Why should they be denied the right to defend themselves?

I dont believe that is accurate.  They are not a state at all.  That is why they are called the "Palestinian Authority."  They have limited autonomy.
As far as "defending themselves" that is a sad joke.

[Antibubba]

Their motive to form an army is "to defend ourselves from aggression".

It reminds me of a Family Circus cartoon from years ago, where Billy runs into the room, crying, and says, "Mommy!  Jeffy hit me BACK!".

If the Palestinians stopped killing innocent civilians and mortaring grade schools, they wouldn't have any "aggression" to defend against.

Yeah, I see Likud and Netanyahu doing very well in this election.

[K Frame]

The Palestinian Authority is NOT a state.

It was established under the Oslo Accords between Israel and the PLO.

Hamas has called for the establishment of a Palestinian state, which would abrogate the Oslo Accords.

[RevDisk]

Anyone care to make any bets as to how long the PA remains in existence?

Personally I give it about 18 months before Israle, fed up with the escalating violence, comes down like the fist of God.

I see no "good side" in that conflict.  Both sides have done nasty things.   The stupidity of both sides is staggering.   One twit actually had the nerve to say that bombs dropped by aircraft are morally ok, but human delivered bombs are evil.   Another twit ranted off the list of what the other side did to his side, omitting the fact that HIS side did the same bloody thing.  Genocide isn't considered a nice thing these days.  Both sides have their fair share of nuts that want to commit it, of course.  

The Sovs spent quite a long time attempting a low grade genocide in Afghanistan.   Only thing is, the Sovs learned that a large well equipped modern Army can't wipe out a determined insurgency too easily.  I imagine the Izzies would do very well in the initial massecres.   Over time, squad here, tank there, few busses blown to shrapnel, repeat until large modern Army withdraws.  


My personal suggestion to let the situation fix itself.   Cease all aide to Israel and Palestine, and tell 'em both to go to hell.   Either they can kill each other (neither side will die easily), or they can find some balance.   It's not a situation I think the US should be involved in.  On behalf of either side.


However, I'm not dumb enough to think either side could easily crush the other side.  How many generals thought the Vietnam peasants with near Stone Age technology could defeat one of the best Armies in the world?    How many generals thought the Afghani peasants with virtually zero technology could defeat one of the largest Armies in the world?

If either side had a lick of sense, they'd find a decent compromise.   Neither side has a lick of sense, and the situation isn't made any better by outside "help" just prolonging the trouble.  (US funding the Izzies, Arabs funding the PA)    Ergo, to hell with both of 'em.


Re comments that the Palestinians shouldn't be allowed an Army.   So much for self-determination and that whole "democracy" fad.   Allegedly, governments govern on the legitimacy of the consent of the governed.

[The Rabbi]

Ah, moral equivalence.  Last refuge of the brain dead and morally-challenged.

[cordex]

Both sides have done nasty things.

Oh absolutely.  There are three minor differences, though.
1. What each side considers legitimate targets.  
  The Israelis will kill everyone in a household that harbors terrorists to target the terrorists hiding there.
  The Palestinians will kill a busload of people to target every Zionist pig on the bus.
2. The leadership's goals.
  The Israelis are willing to kill to protect themselves and their overall goal is to protect themselves from repeated aggression.
  The Palestinians' stated goal is to wipe Israel off the map and to drive the Jew into the sea.  Death to the Zionist pigs.
3. How they deal with targeting noncombatants.
  The Israelis will try an Israeli settler for murder if they go on a rampage and kill noncombatant Palestinians.
  The Palestinian leadership rewards attacks on noncombatant Zionist pigs.

Are the Israelis guilt free?  Hardly!  But they are clearly the "good guys", if only by comparison.

As for all the talk of "comprimise", how would you go about comprimising with someone whose primary demand is that you and everyone like you be "pushed into the sea"?

[toro]

How about the fact that the Palestinians also hate Christians and what them all dead?


                                      Mrs. Toro


===
Matthew 1:1
 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

[mtnbkr]

Y'know, the more I hear about how the Israelis are brutalizing their own protestors over the forced explusions

What "brutalizing" are you talking about?

Chris

[K Frame]

"What "brutalizing" are you talking about?"

You don't have cable, so you probably haven't seen the CNN feeds.

The Isralies are trying to get rid of some unauthorized "outposts," basically small clusters of houses, that have been built by essentially militant squatters. That has been going on for years, but as part of the peace process Israel has agreed to remove the unauthorized outposts, and the Isralie inhabitants have been fighting back.

The video yesterday showed Isralie riot police, including horseback police (I didn't know the Isralies had any mounted police) battling with several hundred protestors, and yes, it got pretty heated, with truncheons and tear gas, but I'd certainly not call any of it "brutalization."

[The Rabbi]

"What "brutalizing" are you talking about?"

You don't have cable, so you probably haven't seen the CNN feeds.

The Isralies are trying to get rid of some unauthorized "outposts," basically small clusters of houses, that have been built by essentially militant squatters. That has been going on for years, but as part of the peace process Israel has agreed to remove the unauthorized outposts, and the Isralie inhabitants have been fighting back.

The video yesterday showed Isralie riot police, including horseback police (I didn't know the Isralies had any mounted police) battling with several hundred protestors, and yes, it got pretty heated, with truncheons and tear gas, but I'd certainly not call any of it "brutalization."

Kinda.

First off, CNN is very anti-Israel, so you can't draw too many conclusions from their biased footage.
Second, the withdrawl was NOT part of any peace process.  It was a unilateral move on Israel's part to secure its borders behind the wall.
Third, Israel has the right, like any other government, to enforce its decisions.  Those decisions were arrived at by democratic process.  The settlers were on the losing end of the vote.  They decided to protest the decision and use violent means, and the gov't responded in kind.  What part of any of that sounds like "brutalization"??

[K Frame]

"First off, CNN is very anti-Israel, so you can't draw too many conclusions from their biased footage."

Fox and ABC were showing the same footage with virtually identical explanations, and Reuters carried several wire articles. All said essentially the same thing -- Riot police clashing with protestors with voice over of the reasons why. Yeah, saying that Isralies are squaring off against Isralie riot and saying why certainly is indicative of anti-Isralie bias.

Peace process, no peace process, whatever. In that part of the world it all looks the same, pretty phucked up.

"Third, Israel has the right, like any other government, to enforce its decisions."

Care to point out just where in the hell I said that they didn't?

What about this statement didn't you catch? -- "...and yes, it got pretty heated, with truncheons and tear gas, but I'd certainly not call any of it "brutalization."

Or is that just my CNN-bred anti-Isralie bias showing through?

[The Rabbi]

Hemorrhoids acting up again, Mike?

[K Frame]

"Hemorrhoids acting up again, Mike?"

Yeah, a long distance one.

[The Rabbi]

"Hemorrhoids acting up again, Mike?"

Yeah, a long distance one.

Maybe I can help.

When mine act up on me, I take a suppository and shove it up my ass.  That's my advice to you, Mike.

[K Frame]

Try eating one of those suppositories, and we'll see if that helps my long-distance 'roid...


I'm still waiting to hear why you apparently believed that I was condemning the Isralies and why you thought I believed that they were carrying out a campaign of Hitlerian repression against the settlers, or whatever they're called.

[K Frame]

Lookie lookie!

Things are well ahead of the 18-month timetable that I predicted.

Roughly half of the Hamas government is in Isralie hands, the Interior Mininstry has been exposed to the exterior, and it looks very likely that the Isralie army is going to haul ass into Gaza any day now.

Even I didn't think things would ratched up quite this quickly.

Many more speeches by Ismail Haniyeh like the one he delivered yesterday and he just might not make it into next week.

[The Rabbi]

I want to resurrect this old chestnut and say, publicly, that Mike Irwin was right and I was wrong.  Things have turned out just like Mike said they would.
Mike, you be da Man!

[K Frame]

Well, not quite how I thought they would turn out, but the 18 months estimation was close. I wish I could predict the stock market like that.

I really thought it was going to be an Isralie invasion that would drive Hamas out of power, not essentially a civil war.

[The Rabbi]

Well, give it some time.  The Israelis have already made incursions there to keep Hamas from launching attacks.  Wouldnt surprise me if they just went back in.  Although that would erase about 15 years of "progress" and they would be back to having the same problems they had to begin with.