Author Topic: was there a post here about this case?  (Read 1790 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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was there a post here about this case?
« on: April 28, 2010, 11:27:23 PM »
 http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seattle-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m4d27-Will-Everett-jurys-verdict-in-Meade-case-change-how-we-look-at-lethal-selfdefense


   When a jury in Everett acquitted police officer Troy Meade Monday on charges of second-degree murder and first-degree manslaughter, did that jury also lower the threshold for the use of lethal force by private citizens in Washington State?
 
   Many people weighing in on reader feedback forums at the Seattle Times (more than 350 responses), Everett Herald and Seattle Post-Intelligencer argue that the verdict simply legalized murder by cops. The jury has handed down its verdict, and this column is not going to criticize that panel for having reached what was obviously a difficult conclusion.
 
   Meade convinced the jury that he was in fear for his life when he put seven of eight fired rounds into a drunken, but unarmed, Niles Meservey last year in a parking lot outside of a restaurant. (It might be argued that Meservey was armed with a 2,000-pound blunt-force weapon: His Chevrolet Corvette.) Meservey’s blood alcohol content was reportedly more than three times the legal limit for intoxication. He had not responded to being hit with a taser. He was allegedly belligerent and would not get out of his car in the moments leading up to the fatal shooting.
 
   Meade fired after Meservey's car had crashed into a fence and may have come back at the officer. (I don't know, I wasn't there.) It was possibly the most meticulously investigated officer-involved shooting in recent memory.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Balog

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Re: was there a post here about this case?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2010, 11:29:11 PM »
I heard about it on the radio, but hadn't pursued it. These cases tend to be depressing.
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Sindawe

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Re: was there a post here about this case?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 11:40:07 PM »
Quote
These cases tend to be depressing engendering of deep seated anger and distrust of the police.

FIFY.

It would appear that unless there is clear video of blatant abuse of power by those in blue, those bad apples get a walk all to often.  [barf]
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

MillCreek

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Re: was there a post here about this case?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2010, 11:47:17 PM »
This is where I live, and suffice it to say that it has received extensive media attention.  Although it is not mentioned in the cited article, the jury reached another verdict the next day.  Under Washington law, if you are tried and acquitted of a shooting, the state will reimburse your legal costs if the jury finds you acted in self-defense.  So after an acquittal is handed down, the jury meets again to render a decision on the self-defense issue.  Although the jury found Officer Meade innocent of the crimes of which he was accused, the jury found that he did not act in self-defense.  So the state will not pay his defense costs.  The Everett Police union contributed $ 50,000 towards his legal fees.

One of the very best personal injury attorneys in the country, Paul Luvera, has filed a civil suit against the city for the death of the citizen.  Mr. Luvera is representing the family. 
_____________
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MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


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Balog

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Re: was there a post here about this case?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2010, 11:48:06 PM »
Interestingly, they found him guilty in the civil phase 11-1. http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20100427/NEWS01/100429863&news01ad=1#Everett.officer.did.not.act.in.self.defense.jury.finds


I find this interesting as well...

Quote from: Revised Code of Washington
    Legislative recognition: "The legislature recognizes that RCW 9A.16.040 establishes a dual standard with respect to the use of deadly force by peace officers and private citizens, and further recognizes that private citizens' permissible use of deadly force under the authority of RCW 9.01.200, 9A.16.020, or 9A.16.050 is not restricted and remains broader than the limitations imposed on peace officers."
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: was there a post here about this case?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2010, 11:56:33 PM »
not exactly   they just didn't find it to be self defense so he could get reimbursed for costs  and apparently cops don't get as much leeway as regular folks there   if my read of the examiner article was correct. interesting
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Balog

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Re: was there a post here about this case?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2010, 12:00:42 AM »
not exactly   they just didn't find it to be self defense so he could get reimbursed for costs  and apparently cops don't get as much leeway as regular folks there   if my read of the examiner article was correct. interesting

Call me crazy, but if I shoot someone and it isn't in self defense (defense of others etc), wouldn't that be murder?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: was there a post here about this case?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2010, 12:05:55 AM »
not gonna call you crazy   but the law up there is "special"  the examiner article is good and there is lots of other coverage
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: was there a post here about this case?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2010, 12:07:12 AM »
  Washingtonians should be interested in how subsequent claims of self-defense, by police or private citizens, are handled. Washington is the only state with a legislatively-acknowledged dual standard in the use of lethal force by police and private citizens. Here, private citizens enjoy a broader permissible use of deadly force than police. It is spelled out in the language of RCW 9A.167.040, which defines the parameters of lethal force by police.
 

    Legislative recognition: "The legislature recognizes that RCW 9A.16.040 establishes a dual standard with respect to the use of deadly force by peace officers and private citizens, and further recognizes that private citizens' permissible use of deadly force under the authority of RCW 9.01.200, 9A.16.020, or 9A.16.050 is not restricted and remains broader than the limitations imposed on peace officers."

 
   A separate statute specifically addresses the use of lethal force by private citizens, and in legal semantics explains that this state allows the taking of human life by a person when there is “reasonable ground” to believe that they or other innocent persons are in imminent and unavoidable danger of grave bodily harm or death. This is generically called the “Reasonable Man Doctrine,” and it boils down to taking an action that any reasonable person would take when faced with the same circumstances, knowing what you knew at the time.
 
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: was there a post here about this case?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2010, 12:08:37 AM »
  This is one reason this column takes some issue with a position reported to have been taken by Deputy Prosecutor Matt Baldock. According to the Seattle Times, Baldock argued that Meade did not act in self-defense, “a finding that is to be based on objective evidence – not Meade’s perception of danger at the time of the shooting.”
 

    Baldock encouraged jurors to find that Meade did not act in self-defense, a finding that is to be based on objective evidence — not Meade's perception of danger at the time of the shooting.—Seattle Times

 
   Here is what the statute says: “…the peace officer must have probable cause to believe that the suspect, if not apprehended, poses a threat of serious physical harm to the officer or a threat of serious physical harm to others.” Question to readers: What do you think that means? (Use the space below for an answer.) Again, this column is neither defending nor condemning Meade, merely putting readers in the position of jurors.
 
   Likewise, a statement made by Meservey’s daughter, Tanda Louden, is something of an eyebrow-raiser, as it seems to question the foundation of our criminal justice system, that all suspects are presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of their peers. She understands how difficult it is for a jury to convict under these conditions. It is supposed to be difficult. Even if Meade is as big a rat as some people evidently think, that does not preclude his right to a fair trial, and an outcome that may leave some people furious.
 

    I am sorry the jury was unable to convict Officer Meade of a crime, but I understand how difficult it is to obtain a conviction where there is a presumption of innocence and a burden of proving the case beyond a reasonable doubt," Tanda Louden

 
   While it is not likely a private citizen – as opposed to a civilian peace officer – would ever be involved in a case similar to Meade’s, it is within the realm of possibility that one day an armed citizen may find himself facing an unarmed attack, perhaps by someone physically larger and more powerful, or by multiple attackers who clearly intend to do him great harm. Based on the Meade verdict, and the state’s superb self-defense statute, if that citizen takes a life, there should either be no charges, or if charged, a jury should probably vote to acquit.
 
   If this was self-defense – the jury will now decide that – then another unique statute in Washington will kick in. State law (RCW 9A.16.110) provides that in successful self-defense cases, “…the state of Washington shall reimburse the defendant for all reasonable costs, including loss of time, legal fees incurred, and other expenses involved in his or her defense.”
 
   No two cases are identical. Each case has its own set of facts and dynamics. Pray to all the gods in the heavens that you are never thrust into a situation where you have to find this out firsthand.

 
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Balog

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Re: was there a post here about this case?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2010, 12:09:56 AM »
You realize I A. live in WA and B. posted that bit from the RCW already, right?  ;) I do love our self defense laws.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: was there a post here about this case?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2010, 12:14:30 AM »
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20100427/NEWS01/100429863&news01ad=1#Everett.officer.did.not.act.in.self.defense.jury.finds

yea i knew that and i don't blame you.  in va the magic words are "i feared for my life!" we has a state supremem court turn lose a felon who used a borrowed gun in self defense with a ruling that basically said " while he can't own a gun it doesn't mean he can't use one that becomes available if hes being shot at hes not required to just be a target."
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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tincat2

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Re: was there a post here about this case?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2010, 02:06:17 AM »
at this distance from the actual event, it's more than difficult to clearly and accurately replicate the actions and emotions of those involved. apparently, guns, alcohol and fast cars were on hand and in use. when one gets around that mix, one is going to have to realize that things can happen which are not 100% the fault of  any one person. that awareness ought to temper somewhat the blame placed on the cop by his accusers. they still have a right to a serious, honest, and open explanation of what happened and why. if my reading of the statute quoted above is correct, the police officer could be considered to have been preventing a drunk and enraged fugitive from getting loose on the public roads and was acting lawfully when he used deadly force.
other issues may be in play here, however. i don't know the makeup and attitude of the town's police force or the history of the deceased, so it's hard to say what really went on. i don't think i would convict the cop of some form of homicide or anything else, for that matter, but i think the city should shell out to dependents of the deceased to the extent that perhaps the police could have done better at controlling  this whole thing when it happened.

Dannyboy

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Re: was there a post here about this case?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2010, 06:41:08 AM »
Regardless of the verdict, which isn't surprising, I'm just amazed that they even prosecuted a cop.  Good for them.  It should probably happen a lot more often.
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.