Author Topic: From Winky to Mohammed: Free Speech and Comments on a Fabricated (un)Holiday  (Read 20602 times)

HankB

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I'm not sure what you're saying.  Are you saying that their evil makes our returned evil ok?
I see no moral equivalency ("their evil" and "our returned evil") between drawing a picture and

a) cutting people's heads off;
b) stoning women who wear the wrong clothes, or even have a suntan;
c) flying planes into buildings;
d) daily suicide bombings;
e) funding madrassas to teach hate and jihad;

and on and on and on.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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MicroBalrog

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It's evil because it's aimed also at the people who support us, who fight in our armies, who have condemned Jihad time and time again. Because it creates the false impression we're at war with all of Islam.

We are not. We are only at war with certain terrorist organizations and the ideologies that move them. We are not at war with the hundreds of millions of Muslims who have nothing to do with it, and many of whom are pretty pro-American.

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Tuco

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Okay.
Stop for a minute. I haz question....

Not all of Islam wants to roll heads over Mohammedian depictions.

Are you saying that most, a great majority or all Islam is offended by pictures of Mohammed,
and only a small fraction (the screaming beards) wants to terrorize over it;
OR
A small fraction of Islam is offended by pictures of Mohammed, and wants to terrorize over it?

It makes a difference.
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BrokenPaw

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Okay.
Stop for a minute. I haz question....

Not all of Islam wants to roll heads over Mohammedian depictions.

Are you saying that most, a great majority or all Islam is offended by pictures of Mohammed,
and only a small fraction (the screaming beards) wants to terrorize over it;
OR
A small fraction of Islam is offended by pictures of Mohammed, and wants to terrorize over it?

It makes a difference.

It's my understanding that a drawing of Mohammed is forbidden throughout Islam, and so a picture of him would be offensive to any practicing Muslim, in the way that a defacement of Jesus would be offensive to any practicing Christian.  But only a small subset of Muslims (the aforementioned "Screaming beards") are calling for beheadings over the matter.

Doing something that is offensive to all Muslims in order to provoke the radical few is akin to portraying Jesus having gay sex (offensive to most if not all Christians) in order to anger Fred Phelps and his ilk:  It will probably work, but at what cost? 

Even if the (somewhat juvenile) goal of Annoying Extremists succeeds, one has also succeeded in alienating the more reasonable among the offended group, thus lessening your chances that they'll side with you and "throw the bastards out" from their midst.

We should be respectful of the beliefs of the peaceful people of Islam, and just laugh at the "screaming beards".  The more attention we pay to them, the louder their voices will seem to everyone watching.
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

sanglant

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images of Christ are forbidden in the Bible, when was the last time you saw a Christan killing(or threatening) someone that drew or painted him?

Balog

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images of Christ are forbidden in the Bible, when was the last time you saw a Christan killing(or threatening) someone that drew or painted him?

Uhhh, no.
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HankB

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. . . Even if the (somewhat juvenile) goal of Annoying Extremists succeeds, one has also succeeded in alienating the more reasonable among the offended group, thus lessening your chances that they'll side with you and "throw the bastards out" from their midst. . . .
With all that's been going on for decades, if they haven't already decided to "throw the bastards out" from their midst, one wonders how "reasonable" they actually are . . . and if a picture of Mohammed causes them to overtly side with the screaming beards, then they were probably less useful as allies than the French were in WWII.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

sanglant

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Uhhh, no.
i didn't say every Christan believes it, but it is there. link

BrokenPaw

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images of Christ are forbidden in the Bible, when was the last time you saw a Christan killing(or threatening) someone that drew or painted him?

And, so what?

If any religion (any religion) is to be granted respect based upon the actions of the worst of its adherents, then there is no religion worthy of an ounce of respect at all.

You cannot legitimately say that just because (at the present time) Islam's lunatic fringe happens to be more extreme than any other major religion's, all Muslims, or the faith itself, is worthy of ridicule.

There were times in history when Christianity was the religion most possessed of a lunatic fringe; did that make all Christians of the time bad people, worthy of derision?  No, it did not.

And with regard to your comment:  There have been instances in the not so distant past where Christians bombed abortion clinics.  I'm fully aware that aborting a fetus is not the same as drawing a picture of a prophet.  However, the point still stands that there are Christians willing to murder for their beliefs, so claiming a moral high ground over Muslims willing to do the same is specious. 

Lumping all Muslims in with the "Screaming Beards" is akin to likening peaceful anti-abortion protestors to the clinic bombers; it's nonsensical.

HankB:
Quote
With all that's been going on for decades, if they haven't already decided to "throw the bastards out" from their midst, one wonders how "reasonable" they actually are . . . and if a picture of Mohammed causes them to overtly side with the screaming beards, then they were probably less useful as allies than the French were in WWII.

Islam is a very large house.  Just as Christianity is.  Neither of those religions will ever manage to divest themselves of the lunatics, because all it takes for another fanatic to show up is for an unbalanced person to "Find Jesus" or "Find Allah", and a new freak show begins.

So no, they haven't gotten rid of them all.  Neither has Christianity.  But acting in ways that are offensive to the bulk of the people in the religion is not the way to gain support among the reasonable people of that faith.
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

roo_ster

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From my understanding of the Bible, sin is sin and evil is evil.  There is no "not a bad sin" or a "really bad sin."
Everything is just as bad as everything else.  I don't spend my days thinking "what's the least wrong way I can go about this?"

1. I see nowhere in the Bible where drawing historical figures is declared sin.  

2, So, you CAN distinguish between drawing pictures and murder, but have decided not to make the effort?  
Regards,

roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Quote
With all that's been going on for decades, if they haven't already decided to "throw the bastards out" from their midst, one wonders how "reasonable" they actually are .

The leading and most respectable Muslim institutions in Sunni Islam have condemned terrorism. Several Muslim nations are assisting Israel in its fight against Hamas - by having their police and military personnel shoot and kill Muslim terrorists wherever appropriate. More Egyptian police and military have been injured this year in fights with Hamas than Israeli police and troops.

What is it that you expect Muslims to do that they're not currently doing?
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Balog

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So at what point can we judge a religion? Can we dismiss Scientologists because they were founded as a money making scam and have "use attack lawyers and harassing lawsuits against anyone who points this out" as a doctrine of faith? Christian Scientists who let their kids die rather than get them treatment? Off shoots of Christianity/Mormonism where a leader exploits the "parental consent" loopholes to "marry" and sleep with his followers 14 y/o daughter? What about a religion founded by a pedophile who viewed violent conquest and "convert or die" as God's will?

Not talking about the lunatic fringe that gloms onto any religion, but one who's very foundation is X undesirable thing? Can we judge that, or is anything hinting at religion off limits for scorn and condemnation?
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MicroBalrog

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I think there's also an issue of "How do we deal with the fact that there are people in society who believe in stuff that we disagree with."

I really dislike certain features of Christianity and Judaism. But I rarely argue about that on this forum because it does nothing but anger people whom I otherwise respect. I know very little about Islam, but some of my very good friends I went to school with are Muslims, and so I try to avoid posting links to stuff like this Draw Mohammad contest on Facebook. I dislike the silly stuff that people like Dawkins do, too.
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BrokenPaw

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I think that the only truly safe path, as with attempting to categorize any group, is to deal with individuals.  There are Scientologists who are good people, and scientologists who are bad people.  There are Christian Scientists who have let their children die rather then letting them have a basic medical procedure, and there are ones whose children have grown up healthy.

There's far less "Black and White" in this than there is "Gray Area".

For instance (and without turning this into an abortion debate, because that's not the central point):  There are people who want all abortions to be banned, even those where the fetus is endangering the mother to the point where she is going to die, likely taking the fetus with her.  A medical procedure exists which can save her, but it is rejected by some because it involves killing the fetus.  So here we have objection to a medical procedure necessary to the survival of a person, on moral grounds.  The fact that Christian Scientists object to a broader range of medical procedures is, at that point, a simple matter of degree. 

A further (and perhaps better) example:  Suppose the government decides that "for the children", to protect them from child predators, all children will be surgically "chipped", so they can be immediately tracked and located in case of abduction.  If someone opposes this procedure on moral grounds (perhaps citing the Mark of the Beast), and prevents their child from being chipped, is that person then culpable if the child is later abducted and killed?  Simple medical procedure, yet prohibited by faith, leading to a child's death.  How is that different from a Christian Scientist refusing a medical procedure that is prohibited by faith, which ultimately leads to a child's death?

Scientology is largely a fee-based construct.  You pay for your various levels of treatment and advancement.  Most other churches collect money in some manner or other, whether voluntary or required.  The collection plate in most churches is voluntary, although there's often a social mandate to give, so that one is not seen to be not giving, and often a theological mandate as well.  As I recall (and I could be wrong, here, so Marnoot et al can correct me if I am), the Mormon church actually requires members to tithe at 10%; I seem to recall a Mormon friend of mine having to fill out forms not unlike tax forms, back when I was in high school.  So.  Money for services rendered, so to speak.  The Scientologists are more direct about it, but the vast majority of churches collect money. 

The level of condemnation that it is justifiable for any person to have for any religion definitely includes "Not for me", in that everyone is free to choose not to follow a given path.  However, when that condemnation starts to get into the realm of "not for thee", we get into the area of rights infringement.  Telling someone else that they cannot (or should not) follow a given path because you disagree with that path's basis is wrong.

If scientology actually helps someone, then does it matter to that person whether it was founded as a money-collecting scam?

If we condemn Christian Scientists for following their faith simply because it differs from our own and thus leads them to make moral choices that are different from our own, on what moral grounds to we stand when we reject some other thing being done to us, claiming it is against our beliefs? 

To judge a faith is to border on defining thought-crime.  People must be free to believe as they choose.  So the only thing left to us to judge is the actions of individuals; what they do with their faith is the key.
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

Balog

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You confuse .gov intervention with social opprobrium. I don't want Islam banned, or limited, or infringed upon. I don't see anything wrong with saying "Your Prophet was a pedophile who ordered people executed for writing satire about him, and I think He does not deserve veneration because of it."
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Marnoot

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As I recall (and I could be wrong, here, so Marnoot et al can correct me if I am), the Mormon church actually requires members to tithe at 10%; I seem to recall a Mormon friend of mine having to fill out forms not unlike tax forms, back when I was in high school.  So.  Money for services rendered, so to speak.

Pretty close. We tithe at 10%, but there are no tax-like forms. At the end of the year, we simply report to our bishop whether we have paid a "full tithe" or not. A full tithe being 10% of our "increase", the definition of that being more or less between the person and God. I tithe on gross, some tithe on net pay, etc.

MicroBalrog

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You confuse .gov intervention with social opprobrium. I don't want Islam banned, or limited, or infringed upon. I don't see anything wrong with saying "Your Prophet was a pedophile who ordered people executed for writing satire about him, and I think He does not deserve veneration because of it."

Can I say bad stuff about Jesus, then?
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Balog

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If it's contained in the Bible, sure. The Quran (Koran, however you wanna spell it) and Haditha all say one of Mohammed's wives was 6 when he married her (and either 9 or 10 when he consumated the marriage) and that he had poet's killed for writing satire about him. Those are not wild Dan Brown style conspiracy theories, they are the religious documents and historical evidence embraced by respected Islamic scholars.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Tuco

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Can I say bad stuff about Jesus, then?

You can say whatever you want about Jesus.

Can radical christians have a pass for exploding buildings and murdering people?
No.
7-11 was a part time job.

BrokenPaw

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I would say that if it is accepted as canon (so to speak) within the religion, then it is fair game for social opprobrium.

There are tenets common to Christianity and Judaism which, while intrinsic to the scripture, would be seen as genocidal today (to wit: 1 Samuel 15:3, "Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." NASB).

The point I am making here is that there are things in the history of all ancient faiths, which one can point to and say, "How can anyone but a monster follow this path?".  And that's beside the actual point, which is:  What is this path guiding individuals to do, now, today.

If Christianity is bringing peace to people (leaving aside the extremists and nutters), good.  If Islam is bringing peace to people (leaving aside the extremists and nutters), good.  If any path is bringing peace to people (leaving aside the extremists and nutters), then good for those people and that path.

You can say whatever you want about Jesus.
Can radical christians have a pass for exploding buildings and murdering people?

Who is giving the Muslim terrorists a free pass?  Re-read MicroBalrog's post about the Egyptians and Hammas, and about the Sunnis denouncing terrorism.
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

makattak

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I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Balog

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Just out of curiousity. Judaism says that saying the name of G-d is offensive. Should I have to redact every post so as not to offend them, or should Islam learn to get over itself and not try to enforce their views on what is offensive to their religion on unbelievers?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

HankB

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. . . There have been instances in the not so distant past where Christians bombed abortion clinics. 
You mean Eric Rudolph? He set his bombs off in the late '90s, over 10 years ago. That you have to go back a decade or more to find a Christian equivalent to the daily - make that multiple daily - outrages committed in that same time frame by Moslem fanatics is very illuminating.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

MicroBalrog

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Balog:

Everyone Draw Mohammed Day was about insulting the Muslims as much as possible. It goes beyond just breaking a rule of Islam, but about breaking it as horrendously as they could. It's about the same as using the word "Jehovah" in the midst of a prolonged string of insults, on live TV.

And we both know practically every mainstream religion tries to do its best to make sure even the unbelievers follow their views in some way.
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BrokenPaw

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Just out of curiousity. Judaism says that saying the name of G-d is offensive. Should I have to redact every post so as not to offend them, or should Islam learn to get over itself and not try to enforce their views on what is offensive to their religion on unbelievers?

That would depend upon your own personal sense of what is situationally appropriate.  For instance, if you were posting on a Jewish forum, then yes, I think you should be respectful of their beliefs and redact your posts on that forum.

In a general-populace forum like this one?  No, I don't believe that's necessary; they have to deal with the fact that others do not believe as they do and do not follow the same laws.

But there's a huge difference between "not censoring yourself" and "setting out intentionally to offend".  The everyone-draw-mohammed day is more akin to saying, "We know that Jews believe it's wrong to say the name of God, so everyone say it really loud."

Same as if someone were drawing a picture of Mohammed for a purpose, as opposed to drawing a picture of him for the purpose of "pissing off the Muslims".  The first one might be offensive to Muslims, but I would expect most of them to get over it, just as the Jews must over the name of God.  But I would fully expect muslims to be offended by an activity designed to offend them.

One thing I feel compelled to point out.  You questioned whether muslims should "not try to enforce their views on what is offensive to their religion on unbelievers".  The vast majority of muslims are not the "screaming beards", and are not trying to enforce their views on anyone at all outside of their own faith.
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.