Author Topic: this is gonna rufffle some feathers  (Read 19498 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« on: July 10, 2010, 06:05:30 PM »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/09/AR2010070902342.html?waporef=obinsite

Headless bodies and other immigration tall tales in Arizona
   

By WRITER NAME
Sunday, July 11, 2010

Jan Brewer has lost her head.

The Arizona governor, seemingly determined to repel every last tourist dollar from her pariah state, has sounded a new alarm about border violence. "Our law enforcement agencies have found bodies in the desert either buried or just lying out there that have been beheaded," she announced on local television.

Ay, caramba! Those dark-skinned foreigners are now severing the heads of fair-haired Americans? Maybe they're also scalping them or shrinking them or putting them on a spike.

But those in fear of losing parts north of the neckline can relax. There's not a follicle of evidence to support Brewer's claim.

The Arizona Guardian Web site checked with medical examiners in Arizona's border counties, and the coroners said they had never seen an immigration-related beheading. I called and e-mailed Brewer's press office requesting documentation of decapitation; no reply.

Brewer's mindlessness about headlessness is just one of the immigration falsehoods being spread by Arizona politicians. Border violence on the rise? Phoenix becoming the world's No. 2 kidnapping capital? Illegal immigrants responsible for most police killings? The majority of those crossing the border are drug mules? All wrong.

This matters, because it means the entire premise of the Arizona immigration law is a fallacy. Arizona officials say they've had to step in because federal officials aren't doing enough to stem increasing border violence. The scary claims of violence, in turn, explain why the American public supports the Arizona crackdown.

Last year gave us death panels and granny killings, but compared with the nonsense justifying the immigration crackdown, the health-care debate was an evening at the Oxford Union Society.

Two months ago, the Arizona Republic published an exhaustive report that found that, according to statistics from the FBI and Arizona police agencies, crime in Arizona border towns has been "essentially flat for the past decade." For example, "In 2000, there were 23 rapes, robberies and murders in Nogales, Ariz. Last year, despite nearly a decade of population growth, there were 19 such crimes." The Pima County sheriff reported that "the border has never been more secure."

FBI statistics show violent crime rates in all of the border states are lower than they were a decade ago -- yet Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) reports that the violence is "the worst I have ever seen." President Obama justifiably asserted last week that "the southern border is more secure today than any time in the past 20 years," yet Rush Limbaugh judged the president to be "fit for the psycho ward" on the basis of that remark.
ad_icon

Without question, illegal immigration and Mexican drug cartels are huge problems. And there is a real danger that the alarming and growing violence in Mexico could spread north. But beyond anecdotes -- the slaying of a rancher and the shooting of a sheriff's deputy -- there is no evidence that it has.

Yet there is McCain -- second only to Brewer in wrecking Arizona tourism -- telling NBC, ABC and CNN that Phoenix is the "No. 2 kidnapping capital of the world," behind only Mexico City. "False," judged Politifact, tracing McCain's claim to a dubious report by ABC News in February 2009. Law-enforcement agencies generally don't track foreign kidnapping statistics, but experts said rates are far higher in various Central American, African and Asian countries. Reports of kidnapping in Phoenix, meanwhile, are declining.

Next, there's Brewer's claim that "the majority" of people immigrating illegally "are coming here and they're bringing drugs, and they're doing drop houses and they're extorting people and they're terrorizing the families. That is the truth." No, it isn't. The Border Patrol's Tucson Sector has apprehended more than 170,000 undocumented immigrants since Oct. 1, but only about 1,100 drug prosecutions have been filed in Arizona in that time.

The claim that illegal immigrants are behind most killings of law-enforcement personnel is also bunk. Arizona state Sen. Sylvia Allen claimed that "in the last few years 80 percent of our law enforcement that have been killed or wounded have been by an illegal." A Phoenix police spokesman told the Arizona Republic's E.J. Montini that the real figure for such killings is less than 25 percent, and that there are no statistics on the wounding of officers.

So what is this "terrible border security crisis" that Brewer says has only "gotten worse"? She complained recently to Fox News's Greta Van Susteren about the Obama administration's handling of the border: "They haven't did [sic] their job."

But really the person who hasn't did her job is Brewer. She should screw her head back on and start telling Americans the truth.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,512
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2010, 07:28:48 PM »
Quote
Ay, caramba! Those dark-skinned foreigners are now severing the heads of fair-haired Americans?

Quote
There's not a follicle of evidence to support Brewer's claim.


There's also no evidence that the Arizona law is racially motivated, racist, or will be racially troublesome.  The pot is calling the kettle black, and should thus be ignored. Or laughed at, your call.  If someone would like to counter claims of the ill effects of illegal migration, let them do so in a reasonable manner, not with meta-fear-mongering.*


*meta-fear-mongering: specious and alarmist claims of fear-mongering by one's ideological opponents. 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2010, 07:39:54 PM »
so have you that elusive follicle of evidence?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,029
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2010, 07:51:59 PM »
^^^ I am making special note to remember the phrase 'follicle of evidence'.  I cannot wait for the opportunity to use it!
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2010, 07:57:11 PM »
I too would be interested in hearing a rebuttal to the original post, but so far all I hear is claims "meta-fear-mongering".  ;/
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2010, 08:15:19 PM »
the crime stats have been available and even the border police chiefs aren't spreading the party line of the jt ready's
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2010, 08:19:28 PM »
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/06/border_crime.html

Fact Sheet: Setting the Record Straight on Border Crime
Border States Are Safe Today and Only Getting Safer

Arizona Governor, Jan Brewer, believes there to be high levels of  "murder, terror, and mayhem" in Arizona; however, evidence actually points to declining levels of crime in Arizona and other border states.
SOURCE: AP/Charles Dharapak

By Ann Garcia | June 14, 2010

    * print iconPrint
    * email iconEmail
    * Text-size: A A A
    * Share: Facebook icon Twitter icon Digg icon Reddit icon

Download this memo (pdf)

Download the memo to mobile devices and e-readers from Scribd

Officeholders and candidates in Arizona who support the state’s draconian new immigration law have justified it with hyperbole, exaggeration, and falsehoods about Arizona’s crime rate. Gov. Jan Brewer has colored recent speeches with images of “murder, terror, and mayhem” and “drop houses, kidnappings, and violence."  According to State Sen. Russell Pearce, who sponsored the law—it mandates that police interrogate people they have “reasonable suspicion” are illegal immigrants and demand production of documentation—cities like Phoenix will become places with “less crime” and “safer neighborhoods.” Pearce claims Phoenix is “second in the world in kidnappings and third in the United States for violence.”

With all the hype around a purported crime epidemic caused by undocumented immigrants, it’s ironic that newly released statistics from Arizona’s Department of Public Safety and the FBI show that violent crime rates in the state and along the southwest border region have been declining. In fact, it’s fair to say the border region has become safer over the last few years, and that Arizona’s new law actually undermines community safety.

Let’s take a closer look.
The facts on crime in Arizona

    *  Violent crimes in Arizona are down by 15 percent since 2006: The FBI’s preliminary Uniform Crime Report, or UCR, for 2009 shows that violent crime—murder, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault—is down in Arizona for the third year in a row. The absolute number of violent crimes in 2006 was 30,916 in Arizona. By 2009 it had dropped by 15 percent to 26,094.
    * Per-capita violent crime rate dropped by 22 percent: Factoring in the change in Arizona’s population, the rate of violent crime per 100,000 persons in 2009 was 390.5, which is a 22 percent decrease from 501.4 per 100,000 in 2006. For comparison’s sake, the violent crime rate in nonborder states such as Georgia and Florida was 410.6 and 604.9 respectively in 2009.
    * Arizona’s violent and property crime rate drop was twice the national average: Nationally, violent and property crimes were down between 2008 and 2009, but Arizona saw rates of decline more than double that. The nation as a whole saw a -5.5 percent change in violent crime and -4.9 percent change in property crime from 2008 to 2009, but Arizona experienced a percent change of -11.1 in the former and -12 in the latter in this same time period.
    * Kidnappings are tied to Mexico’s organized crime syndicate, not innocent Americans: It’s clear that Arizona has an organized crime problem, with 267 kidnappings in 2009 in Phoenix alone. But the kidnappings most often occur when human smugglers—who are usually part of Mexican drug cartels—demand more money for their services. As Phoenix police Sgt. Tommy Thompson said, “We’re talking about the kidnapping of smugglers and associates. I have no fear that my kids or grandkids will be victims.” This means that our efforts must be directed toward two fronts: fixing our broken immigration system so that people can immigrate legally with visas and not illegally with smugglers, and helping to resolve the deadly war on drugs in Mexico.

A safer southwest border

    * Border cities are among the nation’s safest: Phoenix and other large border (and near-border) cities have some of the nation’s lowest crime rates, including San Diego, El Paso, and Austin.
    * Border counties have low violent crime rates: Counties along the southwest border have some of the lowest rates of violent crime per capita in the nation. Their rates have dropped by more than 30 percent since the 1990s.
    * There’s no evidence of “spillover” of violence from Mexico: El Paso, Texas, has three bridges leading directly into Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, a city which has suffered a significant percentage of the national death toll brought on by the Mexican war on drug cartels, which approaches 23,000 today. El Paso experienced only 12 murders in 2009, which was actually down from 17 in 2008. San Diego, California saw 41 murders in 2009, down from 55 in 2008, and Tucson, Arizona experienced 35 in 2009, a significant decrease from the 65 murders committed in 2008. Claims of spillover violence are clearly overblown.
    * High-immigrant cities are safer: Christopher Dickey, Paris bureau chief and Middle East regional editor for Newsweek, points out that, “San Antonio saw violent crime drop from 9,699 incidents to 7,844; murders from 116 to 99. Compare that with a city like Detroit, which is a little bigger than El Paso and much smaller than San Antonio—and not exactly a magnet for job-seeking immigrants. Its murder rate went up from 323 in 2008 to 361 in 2009.” This recent pattern falls right in line with the calculations of Tim Wadsworth, sociologist from the University of Colorado at Boulder. In Wadsworth’s recent study he concludes that “cities with the largest increases in immigration between 1990 and 2000 experienced the largest decreases in homicide and robbery during the same time period.”

Arizona law undermines community safety

    * Civilian cooperation will decrease: A delegation of police chiefs from major cities in Arizona and across the country met on May 26 with Attorney General Eric Holder to make clear they opposed the Arizona law because it would hurt local law enforcement efforts. As Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck said following the meeting, “This is not a law that increases public safety. This is a bill that makes it much harder for us to do our jobs...crime will go up if this becomes law in Arizona or in any other state.” That’s because police need full cooperation from residents—legal and otherwise—in order to solve and prevent crime.
    * Immigrant communities will be marginalized: Arizona’s new law will “drive a wedge between some communities and law enforcement” instead of reducing crime, argues Rob Davis, police chief of San Jose, California. It will erode the mutual trust and cooperation that police have worked to develop and maintain with immigrant communities throughout the years and instead alienate these communities.
    * Resources will be diverted from fighting serious crime: Police resources in Arizona will be taken away from serious crime investigations and redirected to questioning the legal status of otherwise lawful individuals. That’s why the Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police opposes S.B. 1070. “We are stretched very thin right now. We don't have enough resources to continue to do this and to take on another responsibility,” said Josh Harris, head of the association.

Ann Garcia is Special Assistant for Immigration Policy at American Progress.

Download this memo (pdf)

Download the memo to mobile devices and e-readers from Scribd

 For more on immigration reform,  see:

    * Arizona Calls the Question
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2010, 08:25:57 PM »
NOGALES, Ariz. - Assistant Police Chief Roy Bermudez shakes his head and smiles when he hears politicians and pundits declaring that Mexican cartel violence is overrunning his Arizona border town.

"We have not, thank God, witnessed any spillover violence from Mexico," Bermudez says emphatically. "You can look at the crime stats. I think Nogales, Arizona, is one of the safest places to live in all of America."

document Republic's Sunday front page

FBI Uniform Crime Reports and statistics provided by police agencies, in fact, show that the crime rates in Nogales, Douglas, Yuma and other Arizona border towns have remained essentially flat for the past decade, even as drug-related violence has spiraled out of control on the other side of the international line. Statewide, rates of violent crime also are down.

While smugglers have become more aggressive in their encounters with authorities, as evidenced by the shooting of a Pinal County deputy on Friday, allegedly by illegal-immigrant drug runners, they do not routinely target residents of border towns.

In 2000, there were 23 rapes, robberies and murders in Nogales, Ariz. Last year, despite nearly a decade of population growth, there were 19 such crimes. Aggravated assaults dropped by one-third. No one has been murdered in two years.

Bermudez said people unfamiliar with the border may be confused because Nogales, Sonora, has become notorious for kidnappings, shootouts and beheadings. With 500 Border Patrol agents and countless other law officers swarming the Arizona side, he said, smugglers pass through as quickly and furtively as possible.

"Everywhere you turn, there's some kind of law enforcement looking at you," Bermudez said. "Per capita, we probably have the highest amount of any city in the United States."

In Yuma, police spokesman Sgt. Clint Norred said he cannot recall any significant cartel violence in the past several years. Departmental crime records show the amount of bloodshed has remained stable despite a substantial population increase.

"It almost seems like Yuma is more of an entryway" for smugglers rather than a combat zone, he said.

Perceptions vs. reality

Since the murder of Cochise County rancher Robert Krentz by a suspected illegal immigrant in March, politicians and the national press have fanned a perception that the border is inundated with bloodshed and that it's escalating.

In a speech on the Senate floor last week, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., declared that the failure to secure that border between Arizona and Mexico "has led to violence - the worst I have ever seen."

He reiterated that Saturday after speaking at the West Valley Military Family Day event in Glendale, saying the concern that drug violence could spill across the border remains intense because Mexico's political situation is volatile.

"The violence is on the increase," McCain told The Arizona Republic. "The president of Mexico has said that it's a struggle for the existence of the government of Mexico."

Congressional members, including Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., and John Shadegg, R-Ariz., sent President Barack Obama a letter asking that National Guard soldiers be sent to the border because "violence in the vicinity of the U.S. Mexico border continues to increase at an alarming rate."

And last month, as she signed Arizona's tough new law cracking down on illegal immigrants, Gov. Jan Brewer also called for National Guard troops. The law makes it a state crime to be in Arizona illegally and requires authorities to check documents of people they reasonably suspect to be illegal. Brewer said she signed it to solve what she said is an Arizona "crisis" caused by "border-related violence and crime due to illegal immigration."

Clarence Dupnik, the sheriff of Pima County, said there always has been crime associated with smuggling in southern Arizona, but today's rhetoric does not seem to jibe with reality.

"This is a media-created event," Dupnik said. "I hear politicians on TV saying the border has gotten worse. Well, the fact of the matter is that the border has never been more secure."

Even Cochise County Sheriff Larry Dever, among the most strident critics of federal enforcement, concedes that notions of cartel mayhem are exaggerated. "We're not seeing the multiple killings, beheadings and shootouts that are going on on the other side," he said.

In fact, according to the Border Patrol, Krentz is the only American murdered by a suspected illegal immigrant in at least a decade within the agency's Tucson sector, the busiest smuggling route among the Border Patrol's nine coverage regions along the U.S.-Mexican border.

Still, Dever said, the slaying proved useful to southern Arizonans who are sick of smugglers and immigrants tramping through their lands.

"The interest just elevated. And we keep the pressure on because next week something else is going to happen, and the window of opportunity will close," Dever said.

Cochise County's crime rate has been "flat" for at least 10 years, the sheriff added. Even in 2000, when record numbers of undocumented immigrants were detained in the area, just 4 percent of the area's violent crimes were committed by illegal aliens.

Tucson Police Chief Roberto Villasenor said his town suffers from home invasions and kidnappings involving marijuana smugglers who are undoubtedly tied to Mexican organizations. However, he added, most of those committing the rip-offs are American citizens.

"I think the border-influenced violence is getting worse," Villasenor said. "But is it a spillover of Mexican cartel members? No, I don't buy that."

More help on the border

While the nation's illegal-immigrant population doubled from 1994 to 2004, according to federal records, the violent-crime rate declined 35 percent.

More recently, Arizona's violent-crime rate dropped from 512 incidents per 100,000 residents in 2005 to 447 incidents in 2008, the most recent year for which data is available.

In testimony to the Senate Committee on Homeland Security last month, Dennis Burke, U.S. attorney for Arizona, noted that Arizona now has more than 6,000 federal law-enforcement agents, with the majority of them employed by the Border Patrol. That represents nearly 10 agents for every mile of international line between Arizona and Sonora.

Border Patrol presence has been backed by increases in counter-smuggling technology and intelligence, the establishment of permanent highway checkpoints and a dramatic increase in customs inspectors at U.S. ports.

"The border is as secure now as it has ever been," Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano told a Senate panel last week.

Given that level of security, Bermudez and others say, it is no wonder that cartel operatives pass through border communities as quickly as possible, avoiding conflicts and attention.

In fact, violent-crime data suggest that violence from Mexico leapfrogs the border to smuggling hubs and destinations, where cartel members do take part in murders, home invasions and kidnappings.

In Phoenix and Tucson, cartel-related violence is hardly new.

In 1996, for example, Valley law-enforcement agents estimated that 40 percent of all homicides in Maricopa County were a result of conflicts involving Mexican narcotics organizations, mostly from Sinaloa state. A decade later, the Attorney General's Office exposed a $2 billion human-smuggling business based in metro Phoenix, where criminals often assaulted illegal aliens while holding them for payment of smuggling fees. More recently, cartel-related home invasions and abductions put Phoenix among the world leaders in kidnappings.

'A third country'

During a national border security expo in Phoenix last week, David Aguilar, acting deputy commissioner for Customs and Border Protection, said policy makers and the public need to understand that the border is not a fence or a line in the dirt but a broad and complex corridor.

"It is," Aguilar explained, "a third country that joins Mexico and the United States."

He emphasized that the cartels operate throughout Mexico and the United States, and he noted that those who think of border security in terms of a "juridical line" really don't understand the dynamics.

Aguilar said that Juarez, Mexico, is widely regarded as the "deadliest city in the world" because of an estimated 5,000 murders in recent years. Yet right across the border, El Paso, Texas, is listed among the safest towns in America.

A review of the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports suggests that Arizona's border towns share El Paso's good fortune. Douglas and Nogales are about the same size as Florence but have significantly lower violent-crime rates. Likewise, Yuma has a population greater than Avondale's but a lower rate of violent offenses.

In Nogales, Ariz., residents seem bemused and annoyed by their town's perilous reputation. Yes, they sometimes hear the gunfire across the border. No, they don't feel safe visiting the sister city across the line. But with cops and federal agents everywhere, they see no danger on their streets.

"There's no violence here," said Francisco Hernandez, 31, who works in a sign shop and lives on a ranch along the border. "It doesn't drain over, like people are saying."

Leo Federico, 61, a retired teacher, said he has been amazed to hear members of Congress call for National Guard troops in the area.

"That's politics," he said, shrugging. "It's all about votes. . . . We have plenty of law enforcement."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/05/02/20100502arizona-border-violence-mexico.html#ixzz0tKS4XmOO
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2010, 08:35:03 PM »
reuters

Crime riles Arizonans bent on immigration crackdown

    *
    * Digg Digg This
    * Twitter Tweet This
    * LinkedInShare on LinkedIn
    * Facebook Share on Facebook

Factbox

    * Factbox: Illegal immigration in the United States
      Sat, May 1 2010

Related News

    * Hispanics decry Arizona law at May Day rallies
      Sat, May 1 2010
    * UPDATE 2-US Hispanics decry Arizona law at May Day rallies
      Sat, May 1 2010
    * Hispanics decry Arizona law at May Day rallies
      Sat, May 1 2010
    * UPDATE 1-US Hispanics decry Arizona law at May Day rallies
      Sat, May 1 2010

Related Topics

    * U.S. »

Vote
Are you in favor of Arizona’s immigration law?

1 / 5
Main Image
Main Image
Main Image

Demonstrators pray as they hold candles during a vigil outside Arizona's State Capitol to protest against the state's controversial immigration law in Phoenix May 5, 2010.

Credit: Reuters/Joshua Lott

By Tim Gaynor

MESA | Thu May 6, 2010 10:31am EDT

MESA Arizona (Reuters) - Following a tip, a police SWAT team closed off the street, put a school on lock-down and then burst through the door of a shabby house where dozens of illegal immigrants were sheltering.

The sheriff's deputies caught three men who took off running and arrested 24 people they suspected of being illegal immigrants recently arrived from Mexico.

"There were fire and police people going back and forth, the road closed off ... It was chaotic," said Virginia Mongold, who watched the operation unfold on Monday, the 56th such raid in the Phoenix valley this year.

Illegal immigration and border-related crime have residents like Mongold and their elected officials riled enough that Arizona passed the United States' toughest immigration law last month -- unleashing a fiery debate over crime, racial profiling and policing that reverberated far beyond the state's borders.

The law seeks to drive illegal immigrants from the desert state, the principal corridor for unauthorized migrants entering the country from Mexico, and a busy entry point for Mexican cartels smuggling drugs to a voracious U.S. market.

Arizona's Republican Governor Jan Brewer charges the federal government has failed in its duty to secure the border with Mexico, and says the state law is needed to curb violence and cut crime stemming from illegal immigration.

As examples of border-related crime, Brewer singled out "drop houses," where smugglers routinely beat migrants to get their money for guiding them over the rugged border, as well as kidnappings linked to the drug trade.

"There is no higher priority than protecting the citizens of Arizona," she said. "We cannot sacrifice our safety to the murderous greed of the drug cartels. We cannot stand idly by as drop houses, kidnappings and violence compromise our quality of life."

'MIGHT AS WELL BE MEXICO'

Almost two-thirds of Arizona voters and a majority of voters nationwide agree with her and support the law, polls show.

But as border crime grabs headlines in Arizona and beyond, U.S. government figures show that arrests on the Arizona-Mexico border have been falling since 2000. Violent and property crimes across the desert state have also declined, suggesting the picture is not as dire as Brewer claims.

In the sleepy street in Mesa where the police carried out their raid, residents grappled with their feelings about illegal immigration and border crime -- who is to blame for it and the best way to respond to it.

Mongold, a young mother who works at a small packaging store nearby, backs the law and blames Washington for failing to secure the border and stem illegal immigration from Mexico.

"I'm angry, I'm frustrated, I might as well be in Mexico there's so many of them," she said, referring to the 460,000 illegal immigrants estimated to live and work in the state, many as day laborers, landscapers, maids and restaurant cooks.

At the Mesa Preparatory Academy, which police locked down in the recent raid, principal Robert Wagner was more cautious about the threat posed by crime and immigration.

"It's somewhat disconcerting that it's going on in our neighborhood, but I don't believe that we are living or operating in fear," he said, choosing his words carefully.

"It is important to look at the facts before drawing a conclusion, and that's part of what we teach in this school." He declined to say whether he supported the law.

The Arizona state law catapulted immigration back to the forefront of U.S. politics and piled pressure on President Barack Obama to deliver on an election promise to Hispanics to overhaul immigration laws and create a path to citizenship for the country's estimated 10.8 million undocumented immigrants.

Obama said on Wednesday he wanted to begin work on immigration reform this year and that federal officials would mintor the new law in Arizona for civil rights implications.

Local law enforcement agencies in Arizona are divided over the measure, which requires state and local police to arrest those unable to provide proof they are in the country legally.

Writing in the Wall Street Journal, Sheriff Clarence Dupnik from the southern county of Pima, slammed it as "unnecessary ... a travesty, and most significantly ... unconstitutional."

The view echoed misgivings by Phoenix Police Chief Jack Harris who said that determining immigration status detracted from the main job of curbing violent and property crimes.

The tough law is set to come into effect in late July, but faces legal challenges from a variety of plaintiffs, including police officers, civil rights groups and city councils.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

PTK

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,318
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2010, 08:39:58 PM »
Interesting, overall. I'll be keeping an eye out to see how this develops.
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
September 1915 - August 2008

"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2010, 09:29:35 PM »
So what about the desert washes full of garbage, and public lands closed off to use by American citizens ?

I guess a few dead ranchers is no big deal  ;/
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2010, 09:34:06 PM »
was that intended as support for brewers speaking from fourth point of contact on beheaded bodies and crime?   this thread is sparse on that  don't feel bad i've got these posts in 3 forums no takers at all
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,512
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2010, 11:30:59 PM »
so have you that elusive follicle of evidence?

 ???  Wow.  So you post an article that is worthy of absolutely zero serious regard, and when this is pointed out, you make the bizarre conclusion that I claim to have support for Brewer's assertions (which up until I read this bit of drivel I had never heard)? 

i've got these posts in 3 forums no takers at all
And it is worthy of none. It's not a serious news story; it's an opinion piece with no other purpose than to mock those with modern, sensible ideas about nation states with laws and borders. A little more emphasis on fact, and less on specious claims of racism, and there would be something worth discussing.  Well, at least something other than your and Milbanks' race-baiting.

Look, csd, I guess you don't encounter this too often, so I'll explain.  I don't feel a need to support immigration enforcement with some laundry list of crime statistics or economic analysis.  Of first importance is that our laws are not being respected, not even by our own government.  What may be worse, any defense of the very notion of law (in this context) is mocked as xenophobia, racism, etc.  On a personal note, there is my refusal to give your arguments any consideration at all, so long as you cannot keep from ad hominem. I notice that you don't jump right into the Klan analogies as quickly or as often as you used to.  That's at least some progress.  But not enough. 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,512
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2010, 11:45:13 PM »
Oh, wait.  Look at the thread title.  So does csd want a debate, or does he just want to ruffle feathers?  Hmmm...
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2010, 12:00:11 AM »
Quote
And it is worthy of none. It's not a serious news story; it's an opinion piece with no other purpose than to mock those with modern, sensible ideas about nation states with laws and borders.

Policy discussions should be based on facts.

If the governor states that people are being beheaded and they're not being beheaded, then this needs to be looked into.

If people are saying there's a violent crime wave in border counties and crime statistics don't back that up, this needs to be looked into.

Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,915
  • A more Elegant Monkey for a more civilized Forum.
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2010, 12:11:49 AM »
Quote
So does csd want a debate, or does he just want to ruffle feathers?  Hmmm

Hmm indeed
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,378
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2010, 12:12:29 AM »
^^^ I am making special note to remember the phrase 'follicle of evidence'.  I cannot wait for the opportunity to use it!

But HOW would you use it? What sort of evidence is comprised of follicles? Evidence of illegal harvesting of skin for cosmetic surgeries being performed by unlicensed doctors, mayhap?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,378
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2010, 12:21:50 AM »
If people are saying there's a violent crime wave in border counties and crime statistics don't back that up, this needs to be looked into.

True enough. I can add one specific anecdote:

I think I may have posted this before, so pardon me if this is a rerun. I had a cousin in Arizona, a deputy sheriff, in fact. He and his wife owned a small condo in Scottsdale and a vacation house up-state somewhere (Prescott, I think). He died about two years ago. About the first thing his wife (widow) did after he died was to sell the condo in Scottsdale and move full-time up to the house in Prescott, with two large German Shepherds.

I have visited the Prescott place. It's WAY outside of town. Remote doesn't even begin to describe it. I asked her why she didn't sell the house and keep the condo. She said the Phoenix/Scottsdale area isn't safe enough to live in, and that they had only kept the condo for short visits when they HAD to be in the metro area. Once her husband wasn't with her, she simply determined that there was NOTHING important enough to bring her back to the metro area.

By the way -- she carries, and she's a good shot. All my cousins out there are good shots, and pro-gun. So if she says the metro area is to dangerous to live in ... I'll take her word over that of some Noo Yawk newspaper writer.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,915
  • A more Elegant Monkey for a more civilized Forum.
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2010, 12:35:55 AM »
Quote
Noo Yawk newspaper writer


New York news writer. That's all I need to know to ignore this   
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,512
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2010, 12:38:29 AM »
Policy discussions should be based on facts.

If the governor states that people are being beheaded and they're not being beheaded, then this needs to be looked into.

If people are saying there's a violent crime wave in border counties and crime statistics don't back that up, this needs to be looked into.

Exactly.  It sure beats race-baiting and pun-ditry. 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2010, 01:55:28 AM »
Hey csd, why is that when debating Micro on American politics or the rest of us about some stupid thing cops in DC are doing you trumpet the supremacy of experience and sneer at white papers and statistics; yet when it comes to your pet subject you reject the experience of those who've lived and worked on the border for skewed and wildly biased "journalism"? Fourth point of contact indeed....
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,915
  • A more Elegant Monkey for a more civilized Forum.
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2010, 04:39:21 AM »
"Brain and brain, what is brain.
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2010, 06:45:46 AM »
so still no takers?   is there really a crime wave?  the stats say otherwise. and notice its only the elected sheriffs who are joining the crowd  and when pressed even they back off

http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/crime-rate-flat-arizona-gov-brewer-turn


hmmmm



then there is this blistering fox new report!  see the leader!   then look at the parts i bolded

ouch

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/29/border-states-dealing-illegal-immigrant-crime-data-suggests/




Border States Deal With More Illegal Immigrant Crime Than Most, Data Suggest

Published April 30, 2010

| FOXNews.com

    *   Print
    *   Email
    *   Share
    *   Comments (169)
    *
    *   Text Size 

A Guatemalan illegal immigrant prepares to board a plane at the Phoenix-Mesa Gateway airport during his deportation process July 10, 2009. (Reuters Photo)

Arizona lawmakers say their new immigration enforcement law will help them fight an illegal immigrant crime wave that is sweeping the state, a claim that is backed by studies and statistics that suggest border states have a disproportionately high number of criminals who are illegal immigrants.

"We've been inundated with criminal activity. It's just -- it's been outrageous," Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer told Fox News.

"Crime is off the chart in this state," added Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu, president of the Arizona Association of Sheriffs.

Critics have called Arizona officials racist, intolerant and downright unconstitutional for passing the law, which makes illegal immigration a state crime and allows police to demand documentation from anyone they suspect is an illegal immigrant.

While the correlation between illegal immigrants and crime is almost impossible to quantify precisely, the available numbers indicate that Arizona -- as well as California and Texas -- are dealing with increased crime as a result of high illegal immigrant populations and activity.

Part of this is because some of those immigrants are being arrested based on immigration-related charges. A Pew Hispanic Center report last year said "increased enforcement" of immigration laws accounts for part of the trend.

But there are other crimes, many of which are drug-related. Furthermore, illegal immigrants and smuggling organizations have been linked to some specific violent crimes in Arizona. Local officials frequently cite the rash of kidnappings in their state in defending the new law. The Department of Justice's latest National Drug Threat Assessment says there were 267 kidnappings in Phoenix last year and 299 in 2008. The report said the victims usually have a connection to immigrant smuggling groups or drug traffickers.

The report also showed that assaults against U.S. law enforcement on the southwestern border are on the rise. The report found that the number of attacks on Border Patrol agents increased 46 percent to 1,097 incidents in fiscal 2008. The report said the assaults were mostly related to immigrant smuggling.

Together, Arizona, California and Texas are now home to 4.7 million of the 11 million illegal immigrants the Department of Homeland Security estimates are in the country.

Other states with high illegal immigrant populations -- like Illinois -- do not have a lot of illegal immigrant prisoners. Federal statistics show the illegal immigrant population is actually underrepresented in Illinois prisons.

But a comprehensive study released late last year from the Center for Immigration Studies cited federal law enforcement data showing that illegal immigrants made up a disproportionate share of the state prison populations in California and Arizona.

In 2004, the year when the data was most recently available, 12.4 percent of California prisoners were illegal immigrants, as compared with an estimated 6.9 percent of the state population. In Arizona, 11.1 percent of the prison population was undocumented, compared with 7 percent of the overall state population. In Texas, the percentage was also slightly higher in the prisons than it was statewide.

A Government Accountability Office study from 2005 also found that most illegal immigrant arrests were happening in California, Texas and Arizona. The study sampled a prison population of more than 55,000 illegal immigrants, and found that 80 percent of all the arrests were in those three states.


But overall, it's hard to say that illegal immigrants have triggered a crime explosion in any of these states, though the recent killing of Arizona rancher Robert Krentz by a suspected illegal immigrant has served as a rallying cry for advocates of tougher enforcement.

FBI statistics show California and Texas had a violent crime average slightly higher than the national average 2008, while Arizona's average was slightly lower.


Jessica Vaughan, a co-author of the Center for Immigration Studies report and policy director at the think tank, said the bottom line is that connections between illegal immigrants and crime are hard to draw.

"We didn't find any evidence to support the idea that either immigrants are more prone to crime or less prone to crime than ... legally resident Americans," she said. "It's very tricky."

Vaughan said part of the problem is that no federal database keeps a dependable count of how many illegal immigrants are convicted of crimes. Federal prison data, for instance, breaks out non-citizens in its data, but that covers several groups and not just illegal immigrants.

Some jurisdictions do keep track, though, and with the data that is available, Vaughan said it's apparent that there is a connection between illegal immigrants and certain types of crimes, like drug trafficking and identify theft. And, she said, illegal immigrants have a tendency toward recidivism.

The GAO report found that of the undocumented residents surveyed, almost all of them had more than one arrest. They averaged about eight arrests per person. Nearly half of the offenses were for drug crimes or immigration violations.

But for those immigrants who are being caught and convicted, their immigration status itself is often the offense.

The Pew Hispanic Center study from February 2009 found that even though Hispanics make up 13 percent of the adult population, they accounted for 40 percent of sentenced federal offenders in 2007. Almost half of those offenses were immigration-related.




then see the correlation and relationship between the 2 italicized sections   and this is a fox news report not the post
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2010, 08:03:09 AM »
It'll be a crime wave when people along the border get fed up and the bullets start travelling in a southerly direction.....then the Feds will get involved to protect the "innocent"....  ;/
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,512
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: this is gonna rufffle some feathers
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2010, 03:28:10 PM »
so still no takers? 

Still no apology for trying to make border enforcement into a racial issue? 

OK, for the sake of argument, let's pretend that all the illegal aliens are well-behaved.  Does this make the Arizona law a bad thing?  Does it justify the fed.gov in suing Arizona for enacting laws similar to its own?  If Gov. Brewer is misinformed or dishonest, does this mean that the state legislature has erred?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife