Catalytic converter question

[never_retreat]

Ok girlfriend has a 05 mazda tribute (ford escape) and apparently one of the catalytic converters is bad.
I think this may have been caused by to much un-burnt fuel. The car had 2 bad coils on one side so I think that may have caused.
Is there anyway to clean one out? besides gutting it which most likely will not work because of the 02 sensors on each side.

Could I pull it out and somehow cook it or clean it?

[Jim147]

I don't think you can clean it out if it's from unburnt fuel. It melted the high dollar metal inside.

Are you sure the O2 sensors are working properly? They can give the same codes as a converter.

jim

[Hawkmoon]

Could I pull it out and somehow cook it or clean it?

Nope.

[Monkeyleg]

Is the car running poorly because of the converter problem?

[zxcvbob]

It might still be under warranty (they don't tell you about the EPA-mandated warranty on major pollution control equipment.)

http://www.epa.gov/OMS/consumer/warr95fs.txt

Free replacement if it's still covered.  How many miles does the car have?

[mtnbkr]

Zxcvbob beat me to it.  I had the cat replaced on my 03 Camry at 75k that way.

Chris

[Harold Tuttle]

i would bet it ran like crap and had a flashing check engine light several hundred miles before the inattention roasted the hardware

[Tuco]

Questions:

What makes you think one of the cats might be bad?

Is everything else up to snuff (the coils, fuel injection, exhaust system)?

How is it running now, assuming it's all good except for the cat?
A clogged cat will show as sluggishness and mild roughness, and possibly extra fuel will be dumped into the injector rail as the Oxygen sensors are getting bad readings and sending the info back to the engine management system.

SOMETIMES a clogged cat can cough itself clean.  A couple tanks of Shell Ultimate, continuous driving at speed and a few cans of seafoam in the tank can help. 

A clogged cat will throw its own OBD codes.  Post up the code you're getting, or search them out on the web.  Or, have the autozone in your town read them for you.  (Write it down).

If the manufacturer is not going to help, and the cat is indeed plugged beyond relief, the cats can be replaced. 
A small town muffler shop can cut and weld a new cat in place for...
... uhhhhh... 
about a hundred dollars plus an hour of labor. 
Oxygen sensors will be extra, if they are damaged.   
Stay away from the "golden touch" type muffler chains, you're looking for a sole proprietorship who's goal isnt selling you a limited lifetime warrenty.
Ask him to "Weld in a new cat" if, in fact, that's what is determined to be needed.

[Monkeyleg]

There's another solution. I went around on my motorcycle to several repair shops and told them that the converter had fallen off my beater car, and asked if they could just stick a piece of straight pipe in where the converter was. I found a shop that would do it. I then cut off the converter at home and took it in.

A new converter for the beater, including labor, was over $400. The straight pipe was $75, and I think they jacked up the price on that.

[Nick1911]

Isn't that illegal?

[alex_trebek]

The catalyst in the converter is platinum. It has a higher melting point than steel. There is no way it has been melted by unburned fuel.


The platinum is a very thin coating applied to a ceramic surface. Since platinum is a adsorbtion catalyst, only a small amount is needed. Since this layer is thin, it may be possible for it to have been abraded by particulates. I really don't know for sure, just guessing here. 

The unburnt fuel could have fouled the converter by coating the platinum with carbon deposits. Running the sea foam might work, if it dissolve the fouling carbon deposits.

Good luck.

[Hawkmoon]

There's another solution. I went around on my motorcycle to several repair shops and told them that the converter had fallen off my beater car, and asked if they could just stick a piece of straight pipe in where the converter was. I found a shop that would do it. I then cut off the converter at home and took it in.

A new converter for the beater, including labor, was over $400. The straight pipe was $75, and I think they jacked up the price on that.

Two problems.

First, as noted, this is illegal.

Second, this is not an older beater. It may (or may not) be a beater, but it is new enough to have an oxygen sensor upstream of the converter, and another downstream. The computer compares the data from the two. If the reading from the downstream O2 sensor is not noticeably cleaner than that from the upstream sensor, it triggers a fault code.

[cfabe]

The cat needs to be replaced if it's clogged/melted. Yes, they can melt from loading with fuel due to a bad coil, I had it happen on a S10 pickup. Since the car is probably in otherwise good condition, I'd bite the bullet and get the factory replacement cat. Another option would be to have a universal cat welded in.

If you weld in a straight pipe, you'll trip an engine light. You can get a oxygen sensor simulator to plug in in place of the downstream o2 sensor that will fool the computer into thinking everything is normal. But that's normally something done by racing guys and I wouldn't recommend it for a street vehicle.

Also, inform the driver of the vehicle that next time the SES is flashing, pull over and shut it down. Flashing means misfire which means possible expensive damage.

[Brad Johnson]

Emissions control equipment is warranted to 100k exclusive of any other time/mileage factory warranty. 

Brad

[Monkeyleg]

Yes, it's illegal. It's also a car that isn't worth the price of a catalytic converter that I drive maybe 1,000-2,000 miles a year.

The catalytic converter was shot, and was leaking, making the car extremely loud. I decided the law was crazy, and opted for quiet for the few miles I drive it.

I certainly wouldn't recommend doing this on a newer car, and I'm sorry for making it sound as though I was.

[drewtam]

Who is telling you that it is bad?
Why are they telling you it is bad? (how do they know its bad?)

If 2 cylinders on a V-6 was not firing, you should have definitely noticed poor performance and rough running.

If this is the case, then yes, that much unburned fuel can collect on the 3-way cat and later exotherm at the right temp and fuel load. This can cause the cat to crack or melt. It can happen with less fuel than you think*. It might fail quickly. Try making a fuss with the dealer to make the entire repair under manufacturers warranty or epa warranty. Its hard for me to imagine a 2005 standard passenger vehicle being outside manufacturer's warranty.




*gasoline lower heating value is ~42MJ/kg, by comparison nitroglycerin ~6.4MJ/kg... in other words, gasoline has 7 times more heat energy to release

[never_retreat]

Ok I'll try to answer all the questions.

I need to get rid of the check engine light to pass PRNJ inspection.
She was driving the car for a while with the two bad coils, It did not run right.
I changed them in January, the check engine light was intermediate at first now it just stays on.
The car has 95k miles so that would be good if it is covered to 100k. I call the dealer I guess.
Code is P0430 "catalyst system efficiency bellow threshold bank 2"
Probable cause exhaust leak <does not have.
check other service codes first < don't have any.
faulty catalytic converter

It has upstream on downstream o2 sensors, so I would have to change both to rule them out. I guess at least a 100 bucks for that.
Auto zone was nice enough to give me a print out with the brand and part number for the cat.
Dorman 674-831 $639.00 at auto zone
$350.00 on amazon.

I have another parts store I deal with I could check also, mostly because I despise auto zone.

Its an ugly looking critter also. I haven't looked at the car yet to see how hard it is to change.

[Tuco]

Wow, that pricey beast includes the exhaust manifold!!!
Looks like a bolt on deal.
No welding?  My kind of repair.

Check on that warranty - That's something I know nothing about.

[Jim147]

Check Rockauto.com for the piece also. They can be pretty good on prices sometimes.

jim

[CNYCacher]

A cat on each side of the engine.  Neat.

Bolt-on is my kind of repair as well, but I would prefer a underneath-the-car-nothing-in-the-way cat myself.

[never_retreat]

A cat on each side of the engine.  Neat.

Bolt-on is my kind of repair as well, but I would prefer a underneath-the-car-nothing-in-the-way cat myself.

Ding ding ding we have a winner. I would rather be on the bottom even If I had to weld it in.

Check Rockauto.com for the piece also. They can be pretty good on prices sometimes.

jim

Rock auto is still 50 more than amazon. I found that site awhile ago when I need new fog lights. Good stuff there.

[seeker_two]

What makes you think one of the cats might be bad?

Trick question...ALL cats are bad....



http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/funny-pictures-cat-is-confused1.jpg

[Jim147]

Trick question...ALL cats are bad....



http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/funny-pictures-cat-is-confused1.jpg

No! It's about the door panel of the Vue. That somehow got used as a claw sharpener.

Cat's have a built in handle for a reason.

Just kidding.

jim

[Brad Johnson]

Found it.  Federal Emissions Warranty on the 05 Tribute/Escape is 8/80.  With 95k on the clock you're SOL.

Go ahead and spin in some new 02 sensors while you're at it.  Most people don't know, or understand, that 02 sensors are a consumable.  Even if one is not far enough out of range to set a code they can (and with your mileage probably are) affecting driveability and economy without you or the computer being aware of it.  The ones on the side with the melted converter are toast anyway.  Replace them while you're already under there getting greasy.  IIRC you have four, two upstream and two downstream.

Clean your MAF sensor, too.  Pop the extra couple buck and put on a new throttle position sensor if yours has one (sometime during that period Ford went to Drive By Wire).  The new 02 sensors, a functional exhaust, and a TPS with no dead spots will probably make your buggy run a ton better.
 
Brad

[CNYCacher]

(sometime during that period Ford went to Drive By Wire).

Would that be the reason for the 1-second delay between the time I press the gas pedal and the time the engine reacts to me pressing the gas pedal in my 05 explorer?