Ignorance of the Law Is No Excuse (Unless You Work In Law Enforcement)

[roo_ster]

http://reason.com/archives/2010/08/02/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-exc/singlepage

Author makes the case that it is nearly impossible to read & understand (let alone comply with) the thousands of laws on the books, but we plebes are held to them, nonetheless.  Even when violating one of them does no harm to another.

Law enforcement (to include prosecutors), OTOH, are not held responsible for not knowing the law and inflicting harm on others due to their ignorance.

Also, the author describes LEOs describing those who they are inflicting harm upon (due to LEO ignorance) as "escalating the situation." 

IMO, I think that agents of the state ought have no more legal powers or immunities than any regular citizen.  They ought to just get paid by the citizenry for exercising the authority invested in the citizenry.  Same standards as to use of lethal force & such, as well.

[HankB]

Author makes the case that it is nearly impossible to read & understand (let alone comply with) the thousands of laws on the books . . .

Ayn Rand wrote in Atlas Shrugged that there's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals, and when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. Declare so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. They pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – thus they create a nation of law-breakers they can cash in on.

Juries CAN rein in this nonsense.

I remember reading a story some years back about a very complex securities case - after a week or two of debate, the jury acquitted on all counts. With the judge and prosecutor both critical of the verdict, the jurors took the rare step of issuing a statement, saying they were NOT stupid - many of the jurors had a very respectable education. The problem is after the prosecutor got through making his case, the jury not only couldn't figure out if the accused was guilty, they couldn't figure out what he was alleged to have done that was actually illegal. Questions they submitted to the judge were simply (not) answered by the judge quoting the law . . . which may as well have been written in Urdu for all the sense it made.

Since the jury couldn’t understand the alleged violation after the fact, there’s no way they were willing to convict a person on allegations that they couldn’t make heads nor tails out of .

So the jury felt they had no option but to acquit.

[makattak]

http://reason.com/archives/2010/08/02/ignorance-of-the-law-is-no-exc/singlepage

Author makes the case that it is nearly impossible to read & understand (let alone comply with) the thousands of laws on the books, but we plebes are held to them, nonetheless.  Even when violating one of them does no harm to another.

Law enforcement (to include prosecutors), OTOH, are not held responsible for not knowing the law and inflicting harm on others due to their ignorance.

Also, the author describes LEOs describing those who they are inflicting harm upon (due to LEO ignorance) as "escalating the situation." 

IMO, I think that agents of the state ought have no more legal powers or immunities than any regular citizen.  They ought to just get paid by the citizenry for exercising the authority invested in the citizenry.  Same standards as to use of lethal force & such, as well.

Seems simple to me:

If citizens are required to find out if something is legal before they do it, law enforcement should be required to find out if something is illegal before they can arrest for it.

Instead, people are arrested for arcane infractions that they could not know while law enforcement is granted immunity to arrest people and bear no consequences for their ignorance. (Unless a paid vacation and a slap on the wrist "retraining" is counted as a "consequence.")

[RevDisk]

I never understood the logic behind "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

It is not possible, NOT HUMANLY POSSIBLE, for any individual to understand the law.  If a person did nothing but read the law, they would never be caught up.  Congress, your state's legislature, county and local manicupalities break out new laws at breathtaking speed.  A person would be hard pressed to keep up with those changes.  But toss in the regulatory changes primarily at state and fed levels, and it's impossible.  Toss in case law, and it's ludicrously impossible.  We'll skip tax code and accounting practices, which puts the situation into "divine comedy land".

I understand that rather than simplify the entire legal and regulatory code, which would gore too many sacred cows, it is easier to blame the individual.  Anyone who would even suggest such a thing would be stabbed to death on the Senate floor by members of both parties.

[Battle Monkey of Zardoz]

(Unless a paid vacation and a slap on the wrist  "retraining" is counted as a "consequence.")

Thats that militant crap again.  LE punishments are akin to military Non Judicial Punishment.  Which is BS.  Cops are citizens who wear badges.  I dont give a damn who thinks otherwise.  If something is illegal, assault for instance.  If a cop is guilty of excessive force, charge his arse with the proper assault charge and let a jury figure it out.  Dont have XYZ Dept investigating and punishing its own officers.  Thats bull.  LE wants to badly to be a quasi 5th branch of military, serving America crap.  Its not, never was meant to be. 

[Viking]

I never understood the logic behind "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

It is not possible, NOT HUMANLY POSSIBLE, for any individual to understand the law.  If a person did nothing but read the law, they would never be caught up.  Congress, your state's legislature, county and local manicupalities break out new laws at breathtaking speed.  A person would be hard pressed to keep up with those changes.  But toss in the regulatory changes primarily at state and fed levels, and it's impossible.  Toss in case law, and it's ludicrously impossible.  We'll skip tax code and accounting practices, which puts the situation into "divine comedy land".

I understand that rather than simplify the entire legal and regulatory code, which would gore too many sacred cows, it is easier to blame the individual.  Anyone who would even suggest such a thing would be stabbed to death on the Senate floor by members of both parties.

It may have been true in saner times (if they ever existed), when the laws could be fitted on one or two A-4 sheets. Not now though.

[Jamisjockey]

The plot thickens.  Many laws and arresting powers are written so vaguely that an arresting officer can just decide you're out of compliance.  

[Balog]

"Ignorance is no excuse" applies to the common law. Don't steal, assault, defraud etc. We're so far beyond that it's not even a memory.

[Ben]

I have no evidence, but I believe there is no citizen of the United States over the age of 5 who has not unknowingly broken many laws. In essence we are, as alluded to above, all criminals.

[Balog]

What was the book that purported the average American committed 3 felonies a day?

[RevDisk]

I have no evidence, but I believe there is no citizen of the United States over the age of 5 who has not unknowingly broken many laws. In essence we are, as alluded to above, all criminals.

With a very basic understanding the law and the depth of regulation, I can assure you, we all are. 



“Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?” said Dr. Ferris. “We want  them broken. You’d better get it straight that it’s not a bunch of boy scouts you’re up against—then you’ll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We’re after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you’d better get wise to it. There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there it that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted—and you create a nation of lawbreakers—and then you cash in on guilt. Now that’s the system, Mr. Rearden, that’s the game, and once you understand it, you’ll be much easier to deal with.”

[Jamisjockey]

PS: Try running a small business.  Just dealing with making the appropriate business deductions is a giant pain in the ass.  I'd promise you the IRS could audit me at any time and have my head on a platter, just for the simple act of trying to get ahead in this life.

[Ron]

I'm no Atlas but I have started the "shrugging".

All I need to do is get rid of my house (w/mortgage) and make a move into a less expensive one (w/o mortgage).

Basically, I dropped out of the rat race three years ago. Now I only work the minimum necessary, just enough to get by.

For me, it's all about work/life balance. The scales are tipped toward quality time, vs working the long hours doing what I dislike just to eek out some occasional expensive fun.

My goal is to have as little a footprint as possible and fly under the radar of the growing oppressive government. I'll render unto Caesar what is Caesars, but not a penny more.

[230RN]

I used to say that you couldn't get in your car, drive it a mile, park it for a half hour, come back, and drive it another mile without breaking five laws.

Someone doubted me, so I said, "I'll bet you five bucks on it, starting right now."

"You're on, I'll take that bet," he said.

"That's number one," I said.

Terry, 230RN

[Waitone]

Back in the days when congress claimed to read its legislation laws were specifically written so as to permit the courts maximum flexibility in interpreting laws. 

The pioneer was Teddy Kennedy.

His magnum opus was Americans with Disabilities Act.

[sanglant]

PS: Try running a small business.  Just dealing with making the appropriate business deductions is a giant pain in the ass.  I'd promise you the IRS could audit me at any time and have my head on a platter, just for the simple act of trying to get ahead in this life.

how dare you try to get ahead, you will be allowed only to get even with the national average and you WILL be content with it.


off topic joke: and i just figured out what Kim Jong-il really is. in 1943 scientists working in germany started a project to clone hitler. Kim Jong-il is "mini hitler". 

[Ned Hamford]

I used to say that you couldn't get in your car, drive it a mile, park it for a half hour, come back, and drive it another mile without breaking five laws.

Someone doubted me, so I said, "I'll bet you five bucks on it, starting right now."

"You're on, I'll take that bet," he said.

"That's number one," I said.

Terry, 230RN

[Regolith]

What was the book that purported the average American committed 3 felonies a day?

Oddly enough, it's called "Three Felonies a Day."

I used to say that you couldn't get in your car, drive it a mile, park it for a half hour, come back, and drive it another mile without breaking five laws.

Someone doubted me, so I said, "I'll bet you five bucks on it, starting right now."

"You're on, I'll take that bet," he said.

"That's number one," I said.

Terry, 230RN

If you guys had been in Nevada, he'd have still been at 0. 

[Hawkmoon]

I'd promise you the IRS could audit me at any time and have my head on a platter, just for the simple act of trying to get ahead in this life.

Well, there's your problem, right there. Whatever gave you the cockeyed notion that you have any right to get ahead? Perhaps you should be a candidate for the IRS 1040 SUPER Short form tax return:

"How much did you make?

Send it in."

[BReilley]

“Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?” said Dr. Ferris. “We want  them broken. You’d better get it straight that it’s not a bunch of boy scouts you’re up against—then you’ll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We’re after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you’d better get wise to it. There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there it that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted—and you create a nation of lawbreakers—and then you cash in on guilt. Now that’s the system, Mr. Rearden, that’s the game, and once you understand it, you’ll be much easier to deal with.”

Nearly as much worth the effort of memorization as the Pledge of Allegiance.

I used to say that you couldn't get in your car, drive it a mile, park it for a half hour, come back, and drive it another mile without breaking five laws.

Someone doubted me, so I said, "I'll bet you five bucks on it, starting right now."

"You're on, I'll take that bet," he said.

"That's number one," I said.

Terry, 230RN

Well, there's your problem, right there. Whatever gave you the cockeyed notion that you have any right to get ahead? Perhaps you should be a candidate for the IRS 1040 SUPER Short form tax return:

"How much did you make?

Send it in."

This thread is full of win!