Author Topic: Good shoot, by a citizen.  (Read 6696 times)

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Good shoot, by a citizen.
« on: September 16, 2010, 12:14:43 AM »
This is what should happen.  I live in Hot Springs, and this story makes me so glad of the DA we have.

http://www.texarkanagazette.com/news/WireHeadlines/2010/09/05/man-won-t-be-charged-for-shooting-office-62.php
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2010, 01:25:30 AM »
real good one if you look at this
http://www.todaysthv.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=110493

http://www.todaysthv.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=110748

http://www.todaysthv.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=110073


and they never even charged the shooter  how could that be?  i mean the blue wall and all.  shoot and this was a podunk private community too
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2010, 01:40:51 AM »
Podunk private community. Wow. I guess you have never been there or you look down your nose at anyone who is not you, as in sitting on your arse in front of a computer trolling.
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2010, 01:48:33 AM »
i'm sorry its a luxury gated community lake side with its own private police force that hire guys with domestic battery backgrounds and doesn't have to release records because its a private police force
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2010, 01:55:32 AM »
Yeah your sorry. It seems with his other jobs the blue wall protected him, or he would not have been able to wear a badge again. But now, since this, maybe he will have to find other employment.
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

taurusowner

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2010, 02:10:32 AM »
So let me get this straight.

Off duty cop/community cop sees someone cause a near collision.  He pursues, out of uniform, and an occupant of the vehicle shoots him. Is that about it?

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2010, 02:27:43 AM »
From the article, link in original post:

Patrol Officer Fred Ensminger “used poor judgment” in his aggressive pursuit of Cindy Nelson, and Nelson’s husband, Jerry Chambliss, was justified in using deadly physical to defend himself and his wife, prosecutor Steve Oliver concluded in a report released Friday.

That's what its about. Being stupid hurts, as it should.

The report notes Ensminger was not on duty, not in uniform and was in his unmarked pickup truck. Ensminger had his truck equipped with emergency lights and a siren for his work as a volunteer firefighter with Lake Hamilton, but he didn’t activate either as he was pursuing Nelson.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 02:32:02 AM by Battle Monkey of Zardoz »
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2010, 05:09:23 AM »
plus homeowner says the cop shot first.  and the cop has a spectacular history  and the only place he could work is a private police force
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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HankB

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2010, 08:40:59 AM »
One of the linked stories stated that the department the cop worked for was " . . . a private entity paid by the Diamondhead Property Owner's Association . . ." and further went on to say they were " . . . not subject to freedom of information laws."

So - exactly what sort of actual authority does a NON-GOVERNMENTAL "police" officer have?

Can I get together with a couple of my neighbors, form a property owner's association, and hire police officers (i.e., ourselves) to play cop, and have the law backing us up?
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2010, 09:18:26 AM »
One of the linked stories stated that the department the cop worked for was " . . . a private entity paid by the Diamondhead Property Owner's Association . . ." and further went on to say they were " . . . not subject to freedom of information laws."

So - exactly what sort of actual authority does a NON-GOVERNMENTAL "police" officer have?

Can I get together with a couple of my neighbors, form a property owner's association, and hire police officers (i.e., ourselves) to play cop, and have the law backing us up?

Depends on your state/commonwealth and/or local laws. In Virginia an armed security guard, specific to the property they are contracted to protect, has the same arrest powers as the regular police.

vaskidmark

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2010, 10:07:14 AM »
Depends on your state/commonwealth and/or local laws. In Virginia an armed security guard, specific to the property they are contracted to protect, has the same arrest powers as the regular police.

Actually, not true at all in any regard.  Armed security guards (a defined entity) can detain for shoplifting and nothing else.

However, there is a creature in Virginia known as a Conservator of the Peace which can be authorized by the judge of the Circuit Court to act as a local law enforcement officer within the jurisdiction set by the judge.  They are the "police" for gated comunities and generally do not have powers that extend beyond those boundaries.  These guys are not required to attend police academy, but must take and pass various courses designated by the Department of Criminal Justice Servives which controls security guards, security companies and the like.  They are subject to many, but not all, of the same liabilities as "real" cops for their actions.

Many apartment complexes that used to hire armed security guards, thinking they were getting rent-a-cops, ended up getting sued for writing post orders telling the guards to arrest/detain trespassers.  They now hire Conservators of the Peace who can arrest for trespass and anything else in the criminal code - but often lose their perp when he runs off the property.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

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They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2010, 10:59:44 AM »
Actually, not true at all in any regard.  Armed security guards (a defined entity) can detain for shoplifting and nothing else.

However, there is a creature in Virginia known as a Conservator of the Peace which can be authorized by the judge of the Circuit Court to act as a local law enforcement officer within the jurisdiction set by the judge.  They are the "police" for gated comunities and generally do not have powers that extend beyond those boundaries.  These guys are not required to attend police academy, but must take and pass various courses designated by the Department of Criminal Justice Servives which controls security guards, security companies and the like.  They are subject to many, but not all, of the same liabilities as "real" cops for their actions.

Many apartment complexes that used to hire armed security guards, thinking they were getting rent-a-cops, ended up getting sued for writing post orders telling the guards to arrest/detain trespassers.  They now hire Conservators of the Peace who can arrest for trespass and anything else in the criminal code - but often lose their perp when he runs off the property.

stay safe.

Interesting. Looks like it was changed about half a year after I went through the training. :P  http://www.dcjs.virginia.gov/pss/codeAndRegs/code.cfm?menuLevel=5&mID=36   There was no mention of COP's when I went through the training for a part time, unarmed, guard job (what can I say, E-2 pay sucked?) Anyways good to know, and it more accurately answers the question about non-police with arrest powers.

roo_ster

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2010, 02:39:16 PM »
Here in Texas some entities can set up their own cop shop.

Some hospitals even have their own police forces.
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roo_ster

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2010, 03:58:47 PM »
So - exactly what sort of actual authority does a NON-GOVERNMENTAL "police" officer have?

As others have mentioned, it varies, but some private corporations have their own police forces (not security guards, but duly sworn law enforcement officers).  For many years, railroads had (and some still have) their own police departments.  In Roseville CA, there used to be a caboose converted into a portable police station, lettered "Southern Pacific Railroad Police".  Amtrak also has its own police force.
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Tallpine

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2010, 06:24:01 PM »
So I could set up my own police force just to protect my own 40 acre slice of heaven  ??? 

It would be a small department  ;)


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BReilley

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2010, 08:59:22 PM »
Interesting how the private citizen scored a hit, but the ex-cop didn't.  Also interesting that it him took five shots to hit a man-sized target in the cab of a truck(I don't believe the articles mentioned how many times the "officer" fired).  People who can't shoot shouldn't own guns.

So let me get this straight.

Off duty cop/community cop sees someone cause a near collision.  He pursues, out of uniform, and an occupant of the vehicle shoots him. Is that about it?

You must be joking.  Read C&SD's links.  One of them states that the woman called her husband(who was at home) to tell him that an unmarked vehicle was had been following her, and he came out of the house and wound up shooting the un-uniformed security guard driving an unmarked vehicle.  Whether he is an off-duty cop is immaterial, he was not acting in a police capacity.  Who knows what really happened - but I do know that if somebody followed my wife home, in the manner which a police officer follows a suspect(i.e. close behind and aggressive), I would want her to call me, and I would certainly be plainly armed and looking for an explanation.  Wouldn't you?

I've had a cop fabricate a "near-collision"(even spiced it up by saying I ran an off-duty cop off the road) story to justify a traffic ticket.  Do you suppose a cop, who is known to regularly exercise poor judgment, might create such a story - or perhaps just exaggerate a real incident - to justify his involvement in an incident which resulted in him getting shot?

Cops should turn in certain arrest/pursuit powers when the uniform comes off.  Otherwise, we get ridiculous stories like this, where people get shot because Mr. Mallcop got all hard trying to keep the peace in "his" neighborhood.  There was NO reason this had to come to gunfire, when a simple uniformed visit to the house, later in the evening, could've solved things.

taurusowner

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2010, 10:50:40 PM »
I didn't read CS&Ds links.  His posts are too tedious to read so I just gloss over them.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2010, 11:46:00 PM »
I didn't read CS&Ds links.  His posts are too tedious to read so I just gloss over them.

Good call.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2010, 01:09:21 PM »
This guy isn't real bright.  Chasing someone in a very un-law-enforcement vehicle and not being in uniform?  He's lucky being wounded was all that happened. 

Given his history he sounds a lot like the kind of person who's desire for a gun and badge stems not from "serve and protect" but from "respect my authoratah!"  A hothead who gets his jollies throwing his power around.  Why?  Because he can.  It's a dangerous mix of bad impulse control, policing power, and deadly weapons.  Good cops hate these types, preferring they not be a part of law enforcement.

Irony of ironies... when I followed the news link above, the ad on the page was for a gun and knife show.

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2010, 01:47:47 PM »
Out of curiosity...can these private police departments buy the same NFA stuff as an ordinary police department?
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vaskidmark

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2010, 03:20:53 PM »
Out of curiosity...can these private police departments buy the same NFA stuff as an ordinary police department?

It all depends on how they are set up.

Examples:
1) local gated community in Va goes to the Circuit Court & does all the proper paperwork to set up a police dept. run by the Bd. of Trustees.  They are a police dept. within every meaning of the existing laws, and in fact own an M-60 - I think just because they can, as opposed to worrying about Somali pirates on their private lake.
2) local gated community in Va about 5 miles from community #1 hires XYZ Security Company to run law enforcement operations on the property, and XYZ goes thru the steps to get its employees signed off by the Circuit Court as Conservators of the Police, with powers of arrest and all that.  They are still private security guards but can have the word "POLICE" on their badges & patches, and being arrested by them is just as real as being arrested by the county deputy (who, BTW, has no authority to arrest for misdemeanors & traffic offenses not committed in their presence on the private property).  XYZ cannot own fully automatic or short-barreled toys.

So, if Montana has a law similar to http://www.dcjs.virginia.gov/pss/codeAndRegs/code.cfmmenuLevel=5&mID=36 and otherwise permits that sort of thing on private property you might be able to swing it.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Good shoot, by a citizen.
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2010, 03:49:01 PM »
Thread closed for personal attacks, rudeness, and unapslikebehavior.
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