Author Topic: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?  (Read 11870 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2010, 11:05:22 PM »
Reformed Egyptian?
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roo_ster

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2010, 11:11:08 PM »
I need to see the Big Lebowski again.  Just saw it once when it came out.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2010, 01:24:44 AM »
Well, I just spent way more time than I had looking at attempts to ttf-ify various transitional Hebrew scripts, as seen in texts from periods relatively close to the time of Christ.  I was unsuccessful.  I suspect I'm merely font impaired, because the texts DO contain all the letters, but the fonts don't appear to. 

If you're interested, look here: http://www.historian.net/files.htm

Some are not Mac compatible, and I haven't looked at those at all.  I fiddled with the Pesher Habbakuk one quite a bit--using it requires some fiddling, as the creator notes--but I just can't find two of the letters necessary.

Other than that cool and kind of esoteric stuff, you're basically looking at modern Hebrew; the letters have not changed unless you want to use a variant script like the paleo-Hebrew Micro posted or the various later scripts developed for differentiating among blocks of text, which kind of look cool, but would be seriously anachronistic. 

Heck, a nice-looking approach would be to use the forms used by scribes in hand writing sacred texts.  The strong blocks with thin crowned points could work very well in a tattoo.  I did not find a free font for that form, but they are out there.  This form can be trickier to use as a font because they usually have options for multiple sets of diacritics, one of vowels and one of cantillation notes.  Again, the letters look basically the same from set to set, just blockier than earlier versions and with the distinctive crowns on some letters.  Also anachronistic.  You'd be using the letters as developed by the people who consider themselves the heirs of the pharisees.

Personally, I would go out of my way to adapt an older scribal form like the ones linked to above.  The necessary letters are in the images he posts, but don't seem to have made it to the font itself.  Very odd, or perhaps it's an OS issue and they are there after all; I have several keys that show up as Latin characters.  I'm haven't switching to another comp or trying to disassemble a jpg for this project--but if it was my shoulder, I would.  Historically, it fits better.  But then I also have some reservations about the association of relatively modern things being associated with the Jews of Jesus' time, because of the massive developments that both sides have made in the past many generations

In any case, I did type up four variants in a basic font.  The second word is the same for all.  The only difference between Hebrew and Aramaic, by the way is pronunciation, which is not indicated in the text.

The first word I put four variants--The messiah, Messiah, Yehoshua, and Yeshua.  Personally, I haven't heard JC referred to as Yehoshua, but others seem to have.  I also include the Yeshua version in a different font. 

Trouble is I don't particularly want to post this online anywhere associated with me, so let me know if you want it and if so, how to get it to you. 



seeker_two

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2010, 05:53:54 AM »
it has already been done early on in the thread.

Listen to the MicroBalrog.....he is a cunning linguist.....





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Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2010, 08:46:02 AM »
Quote from: HTG
And the New Testament was certainly written in Greek.

Certainly not all of it was originally written in Greek. Many of the NT books were originally in Aramaic and later translated into Greek. The King James Bible was based primarily on the GReek manuscripts, while newer bible translations use older, Aramaic manuscripts for better accuracy. That's how (for example) the KJV came to translate the commandment as "Thou shalt not kill," when the more accurate translation is "You should not commit murder."
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Harold Tuttle

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2010, 02:40:11 PM »
!המשיח קם! באמת קם
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

lee n. field

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2010, 05:31:08 PM »
Certainly not all of it was originally written in Greek. Many of the NT books were originally in Aramaic and later translated into Greek. The King James Bible was based primarily on the GReek manuscripts, while newer bible translations use older, Aramaic manuscripts for better accuracy. That's how (for example) the KJV came to translate the commandment as "Thou shalt not kill," when the more accurate translation is "You should not commit murder."

Beg to differ.  What we have for the New Testament, back to the oldest existing fragment in the early 2nd century, is Greek. 

Exactly what Aramaic manuscripts are you thinking of?

"Thou shall not murder" isn't relevant.  It is from the Old Testament, written in Hebrew (with a few Aramaic bits). 
In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2010, 05:48:01 PM »
The King James Bible was based primarily on the GReek manuscripts, while newer bible translations use older, Aramaic manuscripts for better accuracy.

Where can I go to read about this? Usually, the KJV is criticized because its translators did not even have a complete Greek text to translate (so they used the later Latin Vulgate).

I wonder if you might actually be thinking of the difference between the Alexandrian and Byzantine text types.
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Harold Tuttle

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2010, 07:11:55 PM »
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

taurusowner

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2010, 07:24:34 PM »
it has already been done early on in the thread.

Ah, so it has.  Spasiba.

lee n. field

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2010, 07:34:25 PM »
Where can I go to read about this? Usually, the KJV is criticized because its translators did not even have a complete Greek text to translate (so they used the later Latin Vulgate).

AFAIK, the AV translators had the complete NT Greek text. 

Erasmus had a handful of manuscripts available,and didn't have a complete text of John's Apocalypse.  He did a conjectural back translation of a handful of verses from the Vulgate into Greek.  (And there's the affair of the Comma Johanneum.)

Theodore Beza, IIRC, at one point in his printed edition, changed something in the text.  Thought what was there sounded wrong. 

Other than that, the Stephanus edition, and there was a Spanish polyglot printed text that came out about when Erasmus' did.

Theodore Beza's text was printed not too long before the AV was started.

That does it.  This summer's been spent re-reading things that need refreshing.  Next up, I'll reread Metzger's The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, that I read 30 years ago. 


In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

BridgeRunner

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2010, 07:35:25 PM »
The exclamation points are clearly not ancient.  The first two words are "the messiah is risen."  The second phrase reiterates "in truth, he is risen"  

taurusowner

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2010, 07:37:05 PM »
Since Hebrew is a Right-to-Left langauge, "Christ is Risen" would be:

המשיח קם

Correct?

Perd Hapley

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2010, 07:38:56 PM »
AFAIK, the AV translators had the complete NT Greek text. 

Erasmus had a handful of manuscripts available,and didn't have a complete text of John's Apocalypse.  He did a conjectural back translation of a handful of verses from the Vulgate into Greek.  (And there's the affair of the Comma Johanneum.)

OK, maybe that's what I'm thinking of.  KJV was partly based on the Erasmus text, right?
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lee n. field

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #64 on: September 24, 2010, 07:41:30 PM »
OK, maybe that's what I'm thinking of.  KJV was partly based on the Erasmus text, right?

I'm sure it would have been used, but I'm too lazy at this second to turn around and walk 4 feet to my copy of Metzger to check.
In thy presence is fulness of joy.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2010, 07:45:53 PM »
Since Hebrew is a Right-to-Left langauge, "Christ is Risen" would be:

המשיח קם

Correct?

Yes.  The first letter means "the" so literally "The annointed one is risen."      

taurusowner

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #66 on: September 24, 2010, 07:58:23 PM »
Sweet.  Thanks everybody.  Now to get started on the artwork.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #67 on: September 24, 2010, 08:01:39 PM »
I'm sure it would have been used, but I'm too lazy at this second to turn around and walk 4 feet to my copy of Metzger to check.

OK, be lazy.  It's not like Tyndale and Luther risked life and limb so you could read the Word in your native tongue, or anything.  =D
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Harold Tuttle

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #68 on: September 24, 2010, 09:14:36 PM »
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

MicroBalrog

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2010, 10:52:24 PM »
OK, be lazy.  It's not like Tyndale and Luther risked life and limb so you could read the Word in your native tongue, or anything.  =D

Bible translations into modern languages were being sponsored by the Catholic church before Luther.

ETA: I remember that there was some kind of late 15th century project, run by catholics in Spain of all places, to produce a Bible edition to include the Hebrew and Greek originals, a Latin translation, and translations into two modern languages, side-by-side. I cannot right now find any mentions to it. Anybody here know what I'm on about?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 10:57:42 PM by MicroBalrog »
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Anyone know ancient Hebrew script?
« Reply #70 on: September 24, 2010, 11:16:16 PM »
If you're thinking of the Complutensian Polyglot, it did not include any modern languages.  There was great in interest in the late 15th c. in making Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic texts more accessible, but in the south, I don't recall any major projects in any vernacular.  Other than Arabic, if that counts as a vernacular  :P

I don't think one can necessarily equate projects run by Catholics with projects sponsored by the Church.  The Church was pretty ambivalent about print at time, and polyglot manuscripts are even more insanely prohibitive than printed ones.