Author Topic: Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...  (Read 22141 times)

ojibweindian

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #100 on: March 31, 2005, 10:48:54 AM »
not everyone.  just you :>)

Sean Smith

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #101 on: March 31, 2005, 11:16:16 AM »
Quote from: ojibweindian
not everyone.  just you :>)
Oh, in that case I take back everything I said.  Cheesy

Michigander

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #102 on: March 31, 2005, 01:38:11 PM »
Death cultists? Nazis? Poopie-heads?*

I thought I helped get this thread back on track.

Oh well. It's moot now I suppose, excepting for all of us who should be documenting our wishes in case we arrive at a similar situation.














* At least I got a good chuckle out of "poopie-heads."
What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

RevDisk

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #103 on: March 31, 2005, 01:57:38 PM »
Quote from: ojibweindian
Isn't that what you death cultists say?
No, we death cultists say "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" just like any other Servant of Cthulu.  


RevDisk

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seeker_two

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #104 on: March 31, 2005, 04:52:30 PM »
To reiterate....








These "men" are MURDERERS....












...and these are their ACCOMPLICES...




We need to treat them as such...
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

macavada

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #105 on: March 31, 2005, 05:51:06 PM »
If they are murderers, then anyone with a living will that states that they don't want to be kept on a respirator, feeding tube, or other life sustaining device will be depending on assisted suicide.  If it is a respect for life issue, then it has to be consistently applied, and the red herring arguements need to be abandoned.

Personally, I think it comes down to a few factors that you either value about our system or don't:

In making decisions for an incapacitated individual, who's king, someone's parents, or their spouse?
Do you have a right to make a decision to end your life when it is being sustained by aritificial means, or is the value for life absolute that no one should be able to make that decision for him or herself, and doing such would constitute a crime?
Are all branches of government equal, and do you want to maintain the separation of powers, or do you want to throw all that aside because of an instant case?

To say that the hospice is "murderers" is simplistic, and detracts from the arguement.  Terminal people die, and hospices accross the country provide a place for them to pass with some semblance of peace and dignity.  Once she was judged to have wanted to end her suffering, the hospice is where she was going to end up.  The people at the hospice are not murderers.

If starvation is the "crime" then no one should be allowed to opt to have a feeding tube removed, whether it be through a living will, or the decision of a judge after reviewing evidence and testimony.

These arguements that compare her to starving children and convicts condemned to death are simplistic, misleading, disengenuous, and hypocritical.

seeker_two

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #106 on: March 31, 2005, 06:20:29 PM »
Do you know that removing the feeding tube and denying her anything by mouth (as per Judge Greer's order) so she could linger for twelve days in dehydrated agony was HER wish?  Show me proof...

Was Michael Schiavo a competent, objective, and credible witness and representative of her wishes? If so, why did it take eight years & a huge insurance check to "suddenly" remember that Terri didn't want to be on a feeding tube? And why did TWO court-appointed guardian ad-litems for Terri state that Michael wasn't looking out for her best interests? Did Judge Greer leave a greedy fox guarding this particular henhouse?  

Was this particular hospice (where the "Mouth of Sauron" Felos has a financial interest) really looking to give her "a semblance of peace & dignity" by keeping people from even administering Holy Communion to a dying woman? What peace & dignity is there in dehydration by force? And, if she couldn't feel anything anyway, why give her morphine?

Were the Pinellas Park Police officers there aware of what they were enabling to happen? Did they support arresting people who tried to show more mercy to a dying woman than all the judges in Florida could muster? Are their consciences troubled? Or were they just "following orders" like their uniformed counterparts of sixty years ago?

Yes, I stand by my statement that Michael Schiavo is a lousy murderer. And I stress lousy because he couldn't finish what he started all those years ago without the help of all those I've indicated.  At least OJ & Scott Peterson got it right the first time...
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

macavada

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #107 on: March 31, 2005, 06:50:00 PM »
seeker_two:

There is no proof that it was her wish.  The only thing we have to go by is the result of a judicial decision.  I guess you can agree or disagree with the judge.  There is no way to know for sure.  The judge just has to weigh the evidence.  It is plausible that she would have wanted to "linger for twelve days in dehydrated agony" rather than continue to exist as a vegetable.  People do make those choices.  I would make that choice.  It doesn't seem so absurd to me.  The length of suffering, and the instant in which death occurs are both relative to the duration of suffering in a hopeless condition.  There is no way to know for sure what she would have wanted.  All we have to address the question of what she would have wanted is our legal system.  I don't want to get rid of our legal system.

I love my parents, but I wouldn't want them to be able to trump my wife's authority if I were incapacitated.

There are questions about whether or not Mr. Shiavo should have been the one making the decisions given his personal situation with his new honey.  Fine.  Those should have been addressed in the judicial procedings by the Schindlers so that the judge could weigh it.  If that circumstance has no bearing, laws need to be passed to define those situations, and who should have legal standing to be able to make medical decisions given certain circumstances.

As for the $1,000,, not much left.

The guardian ad litems had their opportunity to look out for Mrs. Shiavo's interests, and their input was weighed along with the other facts.

Guest

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #108 on: April 01, 2005, 12:12:52 AM »
You could just as easily say that her parents are issue-driven sadists who allowed their idealogy to trump fifteen years of their own daughters suffering.

And that would be just as big of a lie. I have asked this before and I still havent gotten an answere. But where have all of you guys been for everyone else that has been pulled off a feeding tube? Where are the protests at every other hospice in the country? Could it be that this is simply the sexy issue of the month and that noone really cares all THAT much, despite the shrill objections?

seeker_two

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #109 on: April 01, 2005, 01:26:24 AM »
macavada: Hence, that is why Judge Greer is just as responsible for her murder. Maybe more so. Florida law prohibits anyone from keeping food & water from any disabled person, yet Greer's order specifically says she could have nothing by mouth. He ignored the testimony of two ad-litem guardians who tesitified against MS--even firing them when they didn't change their testimony on his order. Greer is a murderer.

Make what choice you will...just make sure to document it. Even if that means you'd actually enjoy dehydration.

As for the money: I don't care how much is left as much as I care on what it was spent on. Certainly not on treatment and therapy for Terri. Most of that money went to the "Mouth of Sauron" to push for Terri's death. Bet the insurance company loved hearing that....

c_yeager: good spin, there. You could work for Felos with that view....

If a case like this happens again (mysterious circumstances leading to coma, "loving hubby" w/ character issues, judges eager to determine life & death at a whim, etc), I certainly hope it will make news. This cannot be allowed again...
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Guest

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #110 on: April 01, 2005, 01:42:55 AM »
Quote from: seeker_two
c_yeager: good spin, there. You could work for Felos with that view....

If a case like this happens again (mysterious circumstances leading to coma, "loving hubby" w/ character issues, judges eager to determine life & death at a whim, etc), I certainly hope it will make news. This cannot be allowed again...
Interesting how much spin followes an indictment of same. Care to substantiate a single thing you claim in your last paragraph?

MaterDei

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #111 on: April 01, 2005, 02:05:39 AM »
I'm just amazed how the same judiciary, who have slowely but steadily eroded our RKBA has all the sudden become an all knowing, always right body.

jamz

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #112 on: April 01, 2005, 02:54:13 AM »
I, for one, really really like Guiness.



Love, James
Everybody loves Magical Trevor

MaterDei

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #113 on: April 01, 2005, 03:50:12 AM »
I was about to tell you guys that it's time to start making fun of the pope since he is obviously dying.  

You guys didn't need the nudge.

"well allegedly the popes living will says he wants to be on life support, but its gotta be wrong. i mean, why would his holiness NOT want to go meet his maker? i mean, hes da freakin pope! if he goes on life support, its only going to raise doubt in the minds of parishoners about his faith in how his soul is to be judged.

i mean, that would tear rifts in the church far wider than any so-called secrets the knights templar has been holding on to."

(at least I hope this is just a tasteless joke and not what you really think)

ojibweindian

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #114 on: April 01, 2005, 04:29:51 AM »
"Oh, in that case I take back everything I said.  "

Hehehehe!  That's pretty good:D

ojibweindian

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #115 on: April 01, 2005, 04:34:20 AM »
I suppose the real reason I am angry over the Terry Schiavo case is the possibility that not everything was taken into account when making the decision to pull the tube.  If there were some sort of documentation that stated Terry wanted this to happen, then no problem.

It's just that there wasn't any legal documentation expressing her desires, and all there was to go on was the word of her husband, best friend, and her mom and dad.  I don't think it would have hurt to fully investigate these claims made by her parents.  Then again, maybe these claims were investigated and found to be bogus.  Wish it would have come out though.

Sean Smith

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #116 on: April 01, 2005, 05:18:53 AM »
Quote from: ojibweindian
Then again, maybe these claims were investigated and found to be bogus.
If you are talking about claims about her medical status not being as bad as it seemed, one of the two witnesses to testify to that effect was a radiologist, who was arguing against the testimony of the court-appointed neurological specialists.  Who would YOU believe?  Do YOU normally trust the LEAST qualified "experts" in the room?

The other doc to testify to her "rehabilitate-ability" was a guy with a shady reputation for promoting quack treatment methods.  Oops.

Nobody has been able to provide evidence that Terri's best friend lied about Terri wanting to not be kept alive in a PVS, or how she even had a potential motive to lie that is remotely plausible or backed up by any evidence.  Courts are supposed to make decisions based on EVIDENCE, not innuendo or hysterical sentiment.  

Maybe the Schindlers' lawyers were morons and presented a factually weak case?  Has that crossed ANYBODY's mind?  If so, that would be tragic, but it wouldn't be the courts' faults... it isn't their job to rule in favor of time-wasting moron lawyers.

spacemanspiff

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #117 on: April 01, 2005, 06:56:04 AM »
actually materdei, i was being quite serious.

i find it ironic that those who are most afraid of dying happen to be christian. christian, and profess to believe they will go to heaven.
that they do everything to stay here in this form hints that their faith is not that strong in what they claim to believe in.

after all, if you are truly going to a better place (or have been promised such by your priest), why wait?
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bountyhunter

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #118 on: April 01, 2005, 12:16:59 PM »
"i find it ironic that those who are most afraid of dying happen to be christian. christian, and profess to believe they will go to heaven.
that they do everything to stay here in this form hints that their faith is not that strong in what they claim to believe in. "

Not all Christians are hypocrites... just the ones making news lately.

MaterDei

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #119 on: April 01, 2005, 02:10:26 PM »
"i find it ironic that those who are most afraid of dying happen to be christian. christian, and profess to believe they will go to heaven.
that they do everything to stay here in this form hints that their faith is not that strong in what they claim to believe in. "

In that case I hope you don't mind me educating you just a bit on the Catholic faith.  To those well informed there is no irony.

1.  The Church teaches that life is a gift and that one should not hasten ones own death.  The Pope's 'living will' as you say states that he wants to be kept on life support.  First, I wasn't aware he had a living will and since the living will is an invention primarily by pro-Euthanasia organizations, to include the Hemlock Society, as a means to let the medical profession off the hook for doctor assisted suicide I strongly suspect that he doesn't have one.

"that would tear rifts in the church far wider than any so-called secrets the knights templar has been holding on to."  Actually what would tear rifts in the Church is just the opposite.  It would bring great scandal if the Pope violated Church teachings in this matter.

2.  People of faith fear death not because of a lack of faith.  Quite the contrary, we fear death because we believe in the fires of hell.  None of us (Catholics) are assured of our salvation, not even the Pope.  That is why about 5 days after his death there will be a funeral Mass.  The purpose of the Mass will be to pray for and offer the Eucharistic sacrifice for the repose of his soul.

Michigander

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #120 on: April 01, 2005, 02:15:14 PM »
Quote from: spacemanspiff
actually materdei, i was being quite serious.

i find it ironic that those who are most afraid of dying happen to be christian. christian, and profess to believe they will go to heaven.
that they do everything to stay here in this form hints that their faith is not that strong in what they claim to believe in.

after all, if you are truly going to a better place (or have been promised such by your priest), why wait?
Taken to the logical extreme spacemanspiff, then all Christians, once they become Christain or aware they are Christain, would just commit suicide. And all Christains who have children would commit infanticide.

Sure, there are descriptions of Heaven and life-ever-after in the Bible. But there is a lot in the Bible, including the New Testament, about life here on Earth too.
What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

spacemanspiff

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #121 on: April 01, 2005, 02:48:14 PM »
Quote
None of us (Catholics) are assured of our salvation, not even the Pope.  That is why about 5 days after his death there will be a funeral Mass.  The purpose of the Mass will be to pray for and offer the Eucharistic sacrifice for the repose of his soul.
forgive me, its been nearly 15 years since i did an indepth study of various world religions. and i sometimes get confused those who believe in 'once saved always saved' and never seek absolution, with those who actually do work hard at obtaining what they interpret to be absolution.

Quote
Quite the contrary, we fear death because we believe in the fires of hell
then there must be a lot more to the catholic beliefs about how ones soul is saved. all i recall is being told that for catholics to enter heaven they must confess their sins, complete their penance, observe communion, and accept christ as savior.

Quote
then all Christians, once they become Christain or aware they are Christain, would just commit suicide. And all Christains who have children would commit infanticide
i've heard that statement made more than once. however, for those who are religious, the act of taking your own life is considered a really bad sin (maybe even unforgivable). then again, it also depends on how one interprets what lays on the other side of life, as well as what the future holds in store for, (lack of a better word) believers.

Quote
But there is a lot in the Bible, including the New Testament, about life here on Earth too.
i wholeheartedly agree, i have come to this same interpretation as well.
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MaterDei

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #122 on: April 01, 2005, 03:26:39 PM »
"then there must be a lot more to the catholic beliefs about how ones soul is saved."  Yes, there is.  

Because I don't want to hijack this thread and because I'm sure nobody wants to hear my pontificating, let me just say that the dispensation of one's soul is entirely in the hands of God.

Michigander

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« Reply #123 on: April 01, 2005, 06:04:06 PM »
Quote from: spacemanspiff
Quote
then all Christians, once they become Christain or aware they are Christain, would just commit suicide. And all Christains who have children would commit infanticide
i've heard that statement made more than once. however, for those who are religious, the act of taking your own life is considered a really bad sin (maybe even unforgivable).
By pointing out that you understand that a Christain is not to take his own life, and I assume you know he is not to commit murder, it appears the following statement you made was disingenuous:

Quote from: spacemanspiff
i find it ironic that those who are most afraid of dying happen to be christian. christian, and profess to believe they will go to heaven.
that they do everything to stay here in this form hints that their faith is not that strong in what they claim to believe in.
What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

spacemanspiff

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #124 on: April 01, 2005, 06:53:56 PM »
okay, so for the homeschooled (read: me), what is 'disingenuous'?
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