Author Topic: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...  (Read 25796 times)

280plus

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vaskidmark

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2010, 03:49:24 PM »
Sorry, but I don't see this a "common sense" at all.

There are many arguments both pro & con - some that are based on science and others based on religion/faith.  Trying to legislate the latter creates a state of affairs that I find intolerable, regardless of how/where you position yourself on the former.

Consider the proponent's stance: "Schofield, who believes religious traditions should change."  If he wants to create a new/different religious tradition let him feel free to do so.  But in the mean time keep his paws off the traditions of others.  (It's the classical position of the leftist-liberal -- what I want for myself must be imposed on everybody else as well.)

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Seenterman

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2010, 03:51:54 PM »
Skidmark I think your sarcasm detector is broken.  :P

Ben

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2010, 04:06:59 PM »
First they came for the Happy Meals, then they came for the penis. The penis is evil.
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charby

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2010, 04:07:19 PM »
all wee wee'd up.

reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTVjab2cHgk
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280plus

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2010, 04:18:01 PM »
Skidmark I think your sarcasm detector is broken.  :P
Apparently it missed it's last scheduled calibration...  =)
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zahc

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2010, 06:48:08 PM »
Sounds like a good law to me. I would oppose a law like this at the Federal level of course, but this sounds like a good law to me. I don't understand why 1. male genital mutilation is still legal and 2. why the medical profession will perform it even if it is legal.

As for the religious arguments, the way I see it, tough beans. There are plenty of cultures and religions that are into mutilating baby girls, but as far as I know female genital mutilation is illegal regardless of any religious justifications. I don't see why male genital mutilation should be held to a different standard.
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dm1333

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2010, 06:49:03 PM »
I'm not sure if the comments after the article are sad, amusing or both, but after all it is San Francisco.  [popcorn]

Perd Hapley

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2010, 07:19:58 PM »
I don't see why male genital mutilation [sic] should be held to a different standard.
Brackets mine.

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2010, 07:23:29 PM »
Removing extra folds of skin is mutilation?  Under that same standard, face lifts will be outlawed next.

Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

AJ Dual

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2010, 07:51:37 PM »
I too see both sides of the issue, and am for one VERY GLAD I had all daughters so I didn't have to make the choice.

I had it done as a newborn, simply because it was common practice in the early 70's.

Those who say male circumcision by a trained professional in clean sterile conditions is the same as female circumcision done on the ground with a dirty knife against a screaming struggling girl who's much more fully grown are putting up a big strawman argument.  ;/

- It does collect crud. And there are conditions where a man can run into problems where the foreskin does get stuck in or out.
- OTOH, modern plumbing/hygiene means it does not collect crud any more.
- You're born that way, so it's the "right" design.
- Taking it off, for convenience, or tradition does not harm anything.

Back and forth... I do see both sides. Stalemate in my mind.

Not to insult anyone, but I'd be rather revolted to be "whole" like that now. Done looks "human" to me, undone looks third-world or like an animals, although I FULLY realize that's just my bias from what I'm used to.

IMO, the encroaching nanny-state issues of banning it are WAY more harmful than allowing it. That's what settles it for me.
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280plus

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2010, 07:52:35 PM »
Quote
Under that same standard, face lifts will be outlawed next.
Given some of the horrid looking face jobs I've seen I'd vote for that.  :lol:
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wuluf

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2010, 08:01:47 PM »
I'm a Jew. that would be religious persecution, interfering with my religoius beliefs.  Interesting that the same people who would ban circumcision, are ok with abortions...

BridgeRunner

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2010, 08:10:37 PM »
I too see both sides of the issue, and am for one VERY GLAD I had all daughters so I didn't have to make the choice.

Me too.  I know I would not have had a son circumcised and that would have pissed off my Jewish parents more than just about anything else in my litany of sins.

Allegedly, uncut is less likely to cause irritation to a man's sexual partner.  I would be interested in some unbiased research on this, but this is an area where it's just about impossible to find a lack of bias, and such a study would probably be impossible to design. Guess I could always do some research on my own... :angel:

Wuluf: The first I heard of the anti-circ movement was an article in the Jerusalem Post, about a movement to ban it in Israel.  Needless to say, they haven't made much headway.

lupinus

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2010, 10:10:11 PM »
Yet more idiocy, it's none of their damn business.

If parents feel it's right, so be it. Likewise if they feel the other way.
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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2010, 10:32:14 PM »
Though it galls me to us this a analogy, if a woman has a right to privacy with regards to murdering her unborn baby, then outlawing circumcision should fall under the same right to privacy.

Whether you support the practice of circumcision or not, this is simply an attack on Judeo/Christian traditions.  If the city could ban the practice of Christianity, they would.
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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2010, 10:34:42 PM »
Quote
- Taking it off, for convenience, or tradition does not harm anything.

You make it sound like cutting hair or something. They don't "take it off". They forcibly separate the foreskin from the glans (which would ordinarily not separate until later in life, protecting the glans during childhood) and then they slice off all the functional parts of the foreskin along with an arbitrary amount of penile skin, leaving the mobility and appearance of the future man's penis decided by the whim's of the mutilating doctor. Thus leaving an open wound and unprotected mucous membrane festering in feces and urine-filled diapers (because it's cleaner). I guess this bloody business doesn't fall into your definition of "harm". The victim is left with a hobbled approximation to a natural penis with no foreskin structures, millions of missing nerves, ugly varicose veins that have been clamped off by the amputation, and a dried out, unprotected, calloused glans. With so many nerves gone, and the mucous membrane of the glans scarified, it's a wonder it works at all. How many premature ejaculation and ED problems are caused by the fact that circumcised men are missing most of the actual nerves that ordinarily control arousal and orgasm?

Quote
Removing extra folds of skin is mutilation?  Under that same standard, face lifts will be outlawed next.

People undergo facelifts voluntarily. I don't see any reason why voluntary circumcision should be illegal either. I only object to removing functioning genital parts from innocent children, who will be forced to go their whole lives with their penis hobbled because of their parents' primitive traditions.

Quote
Back and forth... I do see both sides.

There is only one sensible side. Let the person choose for himself if he wishes to modify his body, if for some reason he is not satisfied with the way it came from the factory. These arguments always revolve around the merits of circumcision, which are irrelevant IMO. I'm not interested in the debate of whether circumcision is actually better or not, because it doesn't change the fact that it's wrong to forcibly perform genital modification surgery on children.  

Quote
If parents feel it's right, so be it. Likewise if they feel the other way.
I'm wondering if you apply this algorithm logically. Should I be able to cut off my child's outer ears? Nose? Some people pierce their baby's ears when they are still too young to walk. The whole area of parental freedom vs. children's human rights is kind of grey. I lean toward less government--government is evil of its own--except in cases where human rights are being violated.

Quote
if a woman has a right to privacy with regards to murdering her unborn baby, then outlawing circumcision should fall under the same right to privacy.

I agree completely, which is why I--consistently--think that both abortion and genital mutilation should be illegal...with some exceptions. I consider being anti-genital mutilation to be perfectly aligned with being anti-abortion. In both cases, it's innocents whose inherent human rights are being violated against their ability to protect themselves, and those that perpetuate harm against them should be punished and persecuted.

Quote
this is simply an attack on Judeo/Christian traditions.

Jewish, or Muslim, maybe. Don't see what it has to do with Christianity. FWIW, I'm not a Jew or Muslim, and if my children want to convert, they can lop their on dangly bits off.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 10:41:41 PM by zahc »
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tyme

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2010, 11:10:49 PM »
I'm a Jew. that would be religious persecution, interfering with my religoius beliefs.

So is banning marijuana or other drugs used in religious practices, yet the feds have no trouble doing that.

It's mutiliation.  So what if it's not as serious a form of mutilation as others, and so what if it's based in ancient tradition?  Do the effects or motivations of the mutilation really matter?  It's not the parents with those beliefs who have to live with it, but the son.

How can anyone justify mutilating or tattooing of infants by parents based on their beliefs shortly after birth, when they have no reason to believe that the child will even share the parents' beliefs by the time the child becomes an adult?

Quote
 Interesting that the same people who would ban circumcision, are ok with abortions...

Not interesting at all.  Those are completely different issues.  Abortion is tolerable because before birth the wishes of the unborn child don't exist and the health and life of the unborn child is not separable from the health and wishes of the mother.  Circumcision or any other non-lethal mutilation, before or after birth, is not tolerable because once born infants have human rights, and have their own path to follow in life, that path should be as much as possible free from influence by parents' traditions and dogmas.  Once children become adults, they are free to believe anything they want, but if their parents have mutilated or marked them, that is undue influence that represents the parents' beliefs, and not necessarily the beliefs of the children-turned-adults.

Male circumcision is on the way out in the U.S., and it's been eschewed in Europe for longer.  If parents want to circumcise their precious, they should move to the middle east where the cultures put up with that crap.  And stay there.

This San Fran law is the right thing to do.
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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2010, 11:12:29 PM »
In female "circumcision" they don't unshroud the clitoris, they Remove it! BIG difference and it can't be claimed to be to done for the sake of cleanliness either. It is done to take the "fun" out of sex Period.
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Ben

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2010, 11:16:51 PM »
My Spidey Sense is telling me that this thread is at the corner of KeepitOpen Road and Locksville Street. Choose your turn wisely.
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zahc

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2010, 11:22:25 PM »
Quote
In female "circumcision" they don't unshroud the clitoris, they Remove it! BIG difference and it can't be claimed to be to done for the sake of cleanliness either. It is done to take the "fun" out of sex Period.

Modern circumcision was invented for exactly the same reason. All the cleanliness arguments were cooked up later.
It was started in the US basically by Dr. Kellog who supposedly did it to curb masturbation, and candidly admitted that his goal was to remove as much of the penis as possible and still leave the male able to procreate. He did not restrict his activities to males; he used to recommend dripping carbolic acid on infant girls' clitoris to burn away its sensitivity. Luckily his female mutilations never caught on, unfortunately the male version did.

HYMOS: Journal of Boyhood Studies, Vol. 4, No. 1, Spring 2010, 78-90

LOST BOYS: AN ESTIMATE OF U.S. CIRCUMCISION-RELATED INFANT DEATHS

- Dan Bollinger

Abstract: Baby boys can and do succumb as a result of having their foreskin removed. Circumcision-related mortality rates are not known with certainty; this study estimates the scale of this problem. This study finds that approximately 117 neonatal circumcision-related deaths (9.01/100,000) occur annually in the United States, about 1.3% of male neonatal deaths from all causes. Because infant circumcision is elective, all of these deaths are avoidable. This study also identifies reasons why accurate data on these deaths are not available, some of the obstacles to preventing these deaths, and some solutions to overcome them.
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tyme

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2010, 11:29:19 PM »
There are all kinds of FGM, ranging from less severe (only removing the hood) to even more severe... removing the clitoris and labia and sewing up the entire area leaving only one small hole.  The wikipedia FGM article has more background.

If females had historically been the dominant sex in major cultures, and if operation of the penis weren't strictly required for reproduction, I have little doubt the more extreme forms of FGM would be inflicted on males instead.

The claim that there's a medical need for male circumcision is nonsense.  Hygiene?  If a girl can keep herself clean, an uncircumcised boy can too.  If there are individual problems with foreskin in specific instances those can be addressed medically, but in what alternate universe is cutting the foreskin off completely a reasonable solution for phimosis?  That's clearly excessive and unnecessary in 99%+ of cases.  Those are not reasonable excuses for circumcision proponents to use to justify their mutilation practices.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2010, 12:42:33 AM »
  Those are completely different issues. 
Of course they are; abortion actually kills children. Intentionally. Usually girls, isn't it?

Anyhow, I guess we should outlaw ear piercings for minors, too.

If females had historically been the dominant sex in major cultures, and if operation of the penis weren't strictly required for reproduction, I have little doubt the more extreme forms of FGM would be inflicted on males instead.

Yawn. Some of those male-dominated "major cultures" practiced castration.
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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2010, 12:49:33 AM »
Unreal. Just un-**expletive deleted** real.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2010, 01:24:17 AM »
too funny! 
one day before hes born i can have a medical procedure done to kill him one day later its all changed.  not sure which is funnier  schofield  or his fanbois
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