Author Topic: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks  (Read 9713 times)

Ron

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U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« on: November 21, 2010, 07:11:33 PM »
U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/11/21/INRG1GCFBT.DTL

How soon before we have a "swarm attack" here in the states?

Will the terrorists be savvy enough to choose targets in states without concealed carry?

Are concealed carrying citizens even a threat to terrorists?

Are we really (institutionally) not preparing for this?

After 9/11 I saw this as the logical progression, that is what caused me to start exercising my latent desire to own and become proficient with firearms and become an advocate of the 2nd amendment.

I ran hot for quite a few years but truth be told finances have put my weekly training on hold for the last couple years. I'm too embarrassed to admit the last time I even fired a shot.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 09:00:19 AM by JamisJockey »
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Boomhauer

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2010, 07:16:37 PM »
Quote
U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks

No *expletive deleted*it, Sherlock...

Quote from: Ben
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the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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AZRedhawk44

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2010, 07:41:23 PM »
I'd point out that Mumbai wasn't prepared, either.

Hell, downtown Kabul, A-stan isn't "ready" for attacks... either from Taliban sympathizers attacking American/coalition forces, or American/coalition forces attacking Taliban sympathizers.

No one is "ready" for random assault rifle wielding wackos to jump out of the woodwork and start shooting.

CCW permittees don't train for it.  They train for direct physical confrontational threat along the lines of muggings, rapes and home invasions... situations where once 1-2 bad guys are shot, it's time to let the adrenaline die down and to surrender the scene of the shooting to the authorities.

Rapid response to Mumbai-style terror attacks is the realm of the warrior.

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For every one hundred men you send us,

Ten should not even be here.

Eighty are nothing but targets.

Nine of them are real fighters;
We are lucky to have them, they the battle make.

Ah, but the One. One of them is a Warrior.
And he will bring the others back.
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AJ Dual

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2010, 09:01:31 PM »
Asian group-think mindset and remnants of the British policing mentality left over from colonialism left India less prepared than the U.S. IMO.

Many P.D.'s have M4's/AR-15's or at least shotguns in patrol cars.

And people with pistol permits have stopped or interrupted/deterred attacks over in Israel. A few suicide bombers, and one or two cases of guys trying to go crazy with trucks or construction equip. to run people over in crowded streets/markets etc.

Would it be a bloodbath? Yeah. Of course.

I promise not to duck.

Jamisjockey

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2010, 09:59:10 PM »
My money is on them waiting until the Federal Government tells us proles to STFU about airport security.
JD

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MicroBalrog

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2010, 10:35:20 PM »
Look how inept and stupid most terrorists are.

People talk about the few very successful attacks, people forget how often the terrorists get a boot in their face.

Israel had not had a suicide bombing for years now. That's not because Israelis are uber, it's because terrorists are human failures.

I've read recently a book by Russia's Gen. Troshev. He recounts a story of how his men were dealing with a group of Wahhabis holed up in dug-out positions in a forest. One of his subordinate had the bright idea of getting several dozen dogs and running them towards the Wahhabis. Turned out the terrorists fear dogs on a level of tribal prejudice, and they broke and ran. So they chased them out into the open and brought artillery down on their heads.
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bedlamite

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2010, 10:41:11 PM »
I don't know, In that position I might take my chances with artillery rather than a pack of Ovcharkas too.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2010, 07:18:58 AM »
A bit off-topic, but are we no longer adhering to the "no copyrighted material" in our OP's? This article even says that they don't want you redistributing it.


U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks

John Arquilla
San Francisco Chronicle November 21, 2010 04:00 AM Copyright San Francisco Chronicle. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

......

Jamisjockey

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2010, 08:20:35 AM »
Look how inept and stupid most terrorists are.

People talk about the few very successful attacks, people forget how often the terrorists get a boot in their face.

Israel had not had a suicide bombing for years now. That's not because Israelis are uber, it's because terrorists are human failures.

I've read recently a book by Russia's Gen. Troshev. He recounts a story of how his men were dealing with a group of Wahhabis holed up in dug-out positions in a forest. One of his subordinate had the bright idea of getting several dozen dogs and running them towards the Wahhabis. Turned out the terrorists fear dogs on a level of tribal prejudice, and they broke and ran. So they chased them out into the open and brought artillery down on their heads.

We have hundreds of thousands of people crossing out border every year.  Easy way for a cell to make their way here.  As long as they're not on a watch list already, they'll probably just get tossed back across the border.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Ron

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2010, 08:50:29 AM »
A bit off-topic, but are we no longer adhering to the "no copyrighted material" in our OP's? This article even says that they don't want you redistributing it.



What part of the article is being distributed here?  Where is the copyright infringement?

The title of the article and some questions it raised in my mind are in the OP. The link is to its original source.

The reason articles are written and published are for others to read. I'm facilitating that end  by providing a link, without reproducing any of the material.

 
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

AJ Dual

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2010, 10:33:59 AM »
Look how inept and stupid most terrorists are.

People talk about the few very successful attacks, people forget how often the terrorists get a boot in their face.

Israel had not had a suicide bombing for years now. That's not because Israelis are uber, it's because terrorists are human failures.

I've read recently a book by Russia's Gen. Troshev. He recounts a story of how his men were dealing with a group of Wahhabis holed up in dug-out positions in a forest. One of his subordinate had the bright idea of getting several dozen dogs and running them towards the Wahhabis. Turned out the terrorists fear dogs on a level of tribal prejudice, and they broke and ran. So they chased them out into the open and brought artillery down on their heads.

Do you think there's been a selection effect at work? That the number of people willing to die for the cause has been winnowed, so they're now scraping the bottom of the barrel?

IIRC, I've seen some articles how the terrorists over there have been resorting to tactics like finding people who are mentally retarded, or extremely socially disaffected to carry out suicide attacks. Or holding some random innocent person's family hostage and forcing them to carry out the attack.

In the relative safety and luxury of America, finding such people may be even harder, and getting them into a group to carry out a coordinated attack nigh impossible unless you import them, and then you run into the problem of finding people competent enough to smuggle or immigrate successfully. Which is a part of why 9/11 took so long, and was in planning preparation for nearly a decade.

I kind of wonder if the cells in America that exist are groups all talking, meeting, planning, with the unspoken elephant in the room that none of them actually want to do it. And the alphabet agencies nab them when the communications and planning rise to the criminal level, and they've exhausted any further intel benefit that further surveillance has.
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MechAg94

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2010, 10:39:54 AM »
IMO, the larger the group, the harder for them to pull off something like that without tipping someone off or making someone suspicious. 

That said, haven't we had small scale versions such as the guy walking into a shopping mall or Church and trying to shoot a bunch of people? 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

AZRedhawk44

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2010, 10:49:44 AM »
IMO, the larger the group, the harder for them to pull off something like that without tipping someone off or making someone suspicious. 

That said, haven't we had small scale versions such as the guy walking into a shopping mall or Church and trying to shoot a bunch of people? 

Yes, but that's lone gunmen. 

The closest we have nowadays is drug/gang related gunfights between law enforcement and criminals.  Those seem to be LEO-instigated though, by trapping the drug/gang criminals in a surveillance net and attempting an arrest of the group.

Random mass attacks against random populace... we're not ready for and I doubt any country anywhere will ever be or has ever been ready for it.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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MechAg94

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2010, 01:34:40 PM »
Unprepared in what way?  What is it that you want police or the govt to do?  Do you want Homeland security to start doing body scans and enhanced pat downs on the road side?  I would like to know what you think we should change to become "prepared"?

What you are talking about is basically military action.  We are as well prepared as any country is.  Our police are generally well armed (at least minimally) and most states have an armed populace.  The only thing I might want to improve is the concealed and open carry laws in various states.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 01:45:43 PM by MechAg94 »
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seeker_two

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2010, 01:38:04 PM »
How does one predict the unpredictable?......
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

MechAg94

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2010, 01:51:21 PM »
How does one predict the unpredictable?......
If it is truly unpredictable, then our intelligence assets have severely dropped the ball.
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gunsmith

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2010, 02:07:50 PM »
iirc one of the SCOTUS Justices specifically mentioned a Mumbai attack as a reason for the 2A.
  I think they know an attack is inevitable-where/when is the question.
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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2010, 02:13:15 PM »
Quote
Do you want Homeland security to start doing body scans and enhanced pat downs on the road side? 

They will start doing that just as soon as they can arrange an event to scare the people enough  :mad:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

MechAg94

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2010, 02:21:57 PM »
They will start doing that just as soon as they can arrange an event to scare the people enough  :mad:
I wouldn't put it past this administration, and then others to continue it.
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AJ Dual

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2010, 02:35:04 PM »
Unprepared in what way?  What is it that you want police or the govt to do?  Do you want Homeland security to start doing body scans and enhanced pat downs on the road side?  I would like to know what you think we should change to become "prepared"?

What you are talking about is basically military action.  We are as well prepared as any country is.  Our police are generally well armed (at least minimally) and most states have an armed populace.  The only thing I might want to improve is the concealed and open carry laws in various states.

Very true.

Other than some institutional policy that when there's tons of shooting in a public space, GTF-over there ASAP, and start shooting back, so the officers feel confident and feel no need to dither about backup or orders from on-high, I don't see much of what else can be done either.

And AFAIK, post-Columbine, we've gotten that policy in place in most LEA's.
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Tallpine

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2010, 04:00:28 PM »
After the terrists shoot up a mall, they'll start strip-searching all the shoppers looking for hidden AK-47s  ;/
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

AZRedhawk44

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2010, 04:15:42 PM »
Unprepared in what way?  What is it that you want police or the govt to do?  Do you want Homeland security to start doing body scans and enhanced pat downs on the road side?  I would like to know what you think we should change to become "prepared"?

What you are talking about is basically military action.  We are as well prepared as any country is.  Our police are generally well armed (at least minimally) and most states have an armed populace.  The only thing I might want to improve is the concealed and open carry laws in various states.

I want the government to start openly advocating (in a gentle and subtle way), concealed carry in public places.  Start encouraging businesses to remove their "no guns allowed" signs.

If the FBI/DHS or local PD showed up at the next IPSC/3gun/USPSA shoot and made it a point to target the PROFICIENT shooter community and engage them in teamwork oriented preparedness... that would go a long way.  The local DHS field office asking for increased concealed carry in workplaces and shopping centers would remove a lot of apprehension from HR departments over CCW in the workplace.

By "teamwork oriented preparedness" I don't mean impromptu fire teams to advance on terrorist mall rampagers.   However, CCW-type people tend to be sober in public, excellent witnesses, reactive to danger (rather than stumps) and they shoot better than most of  the public.  Competitors who also CCW tend to eclipse police accuracy when it comes to hits on target.  It would be nice to see our government acknowledge the purpose of the 2A and the potential efficacy (both in real efficacy in a shoot as well as efficacy as a deterrent) of the modern populace/militia.

I mean "the ideal way we (Government/police) want YOU as a CCW permitee to respond to a multiple active shooter event like Mumbai."  Perhaps even incorporating such ideas into shoot scenarios for IPSC/USPSA/3gun/whatever competitions.

A modern-day revival of the DCM.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2010, 04:19:36 PM »
They will start doing that just as soon as they can arrange an event to scare the people enough  :mad:

Arranged? Doubt it.  But clearly expect the 4th Amendment to be tossed to the wayside if the people are "scared" enough.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

MicroBalrog

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2010, 04:22:31 PM »
Quote

By "teamwork oriented preparedness" I don't mean impromptu fire teams to advance on terrorist mall rampagers.   

Why not?

Israel has - at several factories/plants - 'readiness squads' composed of local employees, and an arms locker with M16 rifles loaned from the Army. Why can such a thing not exist at a shopping mall or a factory if you are that worried?
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AJ Dual

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Re: U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2010, 04:25:57 PM »
An anti-terr DCM sorta thing... Huh.

I like it, but you're dreaming.

If you look at the cluster-fark that the FFDO program turned into, pilots entrusted with hundreds of lives, and now post 9/11, are now regarded as flying bombs, and all the hoops they have to jump through just to carry an HK pistol on their belt while flying... it's.. never... gonna... happen.

Although I think you know this as well as I.

An America, or just a fed.gov with the actual balls to do such a thing would be inhabiting a world that's vastly different from the one we have today there might not be any such thing as Islamic terrorisim. Probably one with no Cold War because we took Patton's advice and rolled on the Soviets the instant Germany surrendered, a Nationalist China instead of a Communist one because we took McArthur's advice and nuked them over the Korean war, and no middle east oil politics because every neighborhood has it's own mini thorium reactor...

And we have Mars bases and whatnot.
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