Question re: automotive transmission fluid

[Declaration Day]

I'm doing some maintenance on my dad's car (2005 Kia Sorento) that the dealer wanted too much for.  One recommendation on the diagnosis sheet they gave him was to change the automatic transmission fluid and filter, which they generously offered to do for only $250.  

While I am sure they are going "by the book" in recommending the change, I have been told by a couple of licensed mechanics in the past that unless the fluid is burnt or the transmission is shifting improperly, it is best to leave the fluid alone.  

The car has only 55,000 miles on it and the fluid looks normal for the age / mileage of the car (slightly brown but certainly not black / burnt)

Any licensed / experienced mechanics here who can chime in on this?  

I'm going to go change the belts and wipers right now, and hopefully there will be a few responses when I come back in the house.

Thanks in advance!

[Jim147]

What does your book say?

I only work on cars for a few people anymore. Most of the books are saying no trans service unless it's being used as a taxi or police car.

So I would only change it if it is listed as normal maintenance.

I have heard the same thing about not changing fluid if you don't have a problem. But I've never had a problem changing the fluid on a transmission that didn't already have a problem.

jim

[Brad Johnson]

You can never go wrong servicing a critical fluid like ATF.  That being said, $250 sounds like a bit much.  I had the tranny in my truck (2007 F150) totally flushed back in Feb at the dealer.  Total cost, including sales tax, was $150.  Granted, my dealer (Pollard Ford in Lubbock) seems to treat folks a lot more reasonably than most dealers so YMMV and each dealer is different.  Might pay to call around and get quotes from multiple dealers.

Hit the web for a Kia forum.  There will be lots of folks who have Been There, Done That, and who can give you the scoop on doing it yourself for much less (or hints on where to take it and have it done at a reasonable rate).

Brad

[dogmush]

This is one of those less cut and dried mechanical things.

You should change the fluid at the recommended interval.  Not doings so WILL increase wear in your transmission.  The fluid has started to break down, the filter is at less then great flow, and little pieces of clutch pack are floating around in your transmission.  The fluid in your trans both cleans and cools a bunch of little hydraluic valves and clutches that are holding the full torque of your engine, so there's a lot of room for wear there.

*but*

Not changing it won't cause your trans to sieze tomorrow.  Or even next week.  The actual amount that trans wear will be increased is dependent on a whole bunch of factors, and is impossable to quantify.  It could be that it will drop your trans life from 150,000 miles to 145,000 miles.  Or it could drop the life from 100,000 mi to 65,000mi.(actually that's pretty extreme.  I doubt bad fluid could drop it that far, but you get the idea) It depends on a lot.

The question you need to answer is how much the $250 is worth to you now vs. longer life on the far end of the car's life.  If Dad's driving a KIA around for another year and dumping it, or is one of those folks that sells a car at X miles no matter what, then to heck with it.  If Dad's going to hold on to this thing untill the wheels fall off (he's making a bad call, it's a KIA) and it would be better to keep up on fluid changes now, as that will extend the time till catastrophic failure.  FWIW, I do all my (street) trans fluids every 50,000mi, and get 200,000-250,000 miles from my non-raced transmissions pretty reliably. (C6's and AOD's).

Also, if you're at all mechanicly inclined just do it yourself.  Mostly an auto trans service is drop the pan, pull off the filter, new pan and gasket, fill with new fluid.  Parts should be around $60, and the part that takes the most time is cleaning ATF off your arms. (There's rarely a drain plug).

In short, I recommend it, but the car probably won't self destruct if you don't.

[Declaration Day]

Dogmush, I've been wrenching on cars for 18 years and have done many trans fluid and filter changes.  My dad will probably not keep the car until it dies, but certainly past 100,000 miles.  Guess I might as well do it.

Thanks guys!

[dogmush]

DD, For what it's worth, I checked the scheduled maintainence on that vehicle, and it calls for new fluid every 15K miles, but not a filter.  It also says there's a drain plug about halfway back on the trans.


SB indicates that 2005 MY was the first year of the 5 speed A/T, and you'll need 10.5qts of Kia Red-1 ATF Part Number UM040 CH020.  (Stupid sport shifty trans.)  Some more google-fu might reveal what that fluid crosses to in normal peoples terms.

[Declaration Day]

Thank you sir!

I haven't even looked at the trans pan yet, but if it has a drain plug that'll spare me a huge mess.

I almost have the belt job done.  Three belts, and I had to remove the cooling fans.  At least it's rear-wheel drive so I have decent room to work on it.

[MillCreek]

On the Hyundai and Kia sites, I have read warnings about using the specific recommended ATF, since some of the universal fluids apparently screw things up.

[dogmush]

MillCreek's right.  Seems like maybe an Amsoil and some Hyundai stuff cross to the Kia spec, but 'net consensus is they might not work, and are more expensive.  Looks like you need to call the dealer and see what they want for a quart of it.  considering the quote at the start, I'm betting $20-$22/qt.  That transmission is apparently built to KIA-spec with one-off KIA-spec fluid.  However, if it's that touchy to the wrong fluid, it's probably pretty touchy about getting it's fluid changed.

[sanglant]

hmm, this might not make any sense. hopefully it will be in something resembling English. if you have a new car(or a car you know has had the tranny fluid changed regularly) change it as spec, probably every 60-120 thousand miles. if you bought/stole/otherwise came to own a decade old car that's never had the fluid changed, leave it be till it dies. changing it will just kill it sooner.

oh, my subie is at 125thousand, and shifting like the day i drifted it off the lot. coming up on flush and fill 4.

[Brad Johnson]

if you bought/stole/otherwise came to own a decade old car that's never had the fluid changed, leave it be till it dies. changing it will just kill it sooner.

Old wive's tale of the worst kind.  Bad fluid is bad fluid.  If it needs changing, change it.  If it doesn't need changing, change it anyway.  It's cheap insurance.

Oh... the comment above about using OEM-spec fluid is SPOT ON!  Mfg develop tranny's for specific fluid types (or specific fluid types for specific trannys).  Using the wrong fluid, even a "universal" fluid that supposedly "meets" the OEM specs, can be a recipe for disaster.  Some people get away with it and claim it's some kind of conspiracy by Big Car, but a quick search of any car forum on the web will quickly blow that fallacy right out of it's tin foil underpants.  Twenty or thirty years ago you might have been okay with a universal fluid like Amsoil.  Not any more.  Use what's spec'd.  Period.  On a high mileage tranny it's not a bad idea to use a bottle of Lube Guard as insurance against the dreaded torque converter shudder (worn OD bands in the torque converter).

Brad

[Declaration Day]

Trans fluid is changed.  I went to the Kia dealer, and it was only $6.63 per quart.   

[Brad Johnson]

Now you need to do the celebratory flush-and-refill for bodily fluids.  I don't recommend Amsoil. Amstel, maybe. 

Brad

[Declaration Day]

I'll be on that shortly.  FWIW everything I did to that car today would have been $750 at the dealer.  Total cost came in just over $100.

[Brad Johnson]

What amazes me is how some folks will NOT take the time to learn some basic mechanic skills, then scream bloody murder when they have to pay a mechanic to do even the simplest thing.  People here in the office have learned not to complain about it to me as my usually remark has to do with how expensive ignorance or laziness can be.

What really makes me shake my head is how some people just don't care.  Driving around on half-flat tires is one of my biggies.  Air is free on just about any corner here.  There's no excuse for ruining tires from apathy, especially given what they cost to replace.  Never mind the hit to fuel economy or the dangers to both yourself and other motorists.

Brad

[Tallpine]

Back when I was logging and I had an engine blow up, I had to learn in a hurry how to fix it myself.

Then finally I got a really good job and it was actually cheaper to pay a shop for it than to take my own time to do it.

Now I'm back to having to fix things myself again ... 

[HeroHog]

We bought a Ford Escape right when they came out and it wasn't till YEARS later I found out it DIDN'T have a user serviceable filter. In fact, to clean the factory screen/filter. you had to REMOVE the transmission! I installed a remote filter right away! I highly recommend doing some research when buying an automatic equipped car/truck to check on if the trans filter is easily serviceable or not! I know I do now!

Ya can see in the pics below where I had to notch the frame a little to clear the filter's canister:







I got the filter kit off Amazon for $25.

[zahc]

I would have changed my own on my Tahoe but there is a frame crossmember that runs right underneath the drain pan. Thanks GM.

My transmission does weirdness; when I drive at a constant, 40mphish speed, the truck surges gently, almost like it's missing on a cylinder or two intermittently, but I think it's the transmission. Maybe it's the torque convertor locking up and unlocking? Anyone had this with GM truck transmissions before?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

couple years of izuzu trooper didn't have a dipstick to check atf. you hada get under and remove plug check with finger


honda crv  no use serviceable filter. to change atf you change it  drive a few miles change again repeat  so you need to get 3 times as much proprietary atf. thankfully it only takes 3 qts

[Boomhauer]

Change it and change it all (not just the amount in the pan). Best way to do this is to take loose the output and return lines and use the transmission as it's own pump to completely change the fluid, plus dropping the pan to change the filter. It's a bit pricey just for the fluid alone.

My transmission does weirdness; when I drive at a constant, 40mphish speed, the truck surges gently, almost like it's missing on a cylinder or two intermittently, but I think it's the transmission. Maybe it's the torque convertor locking up and unlocking? Anyone had this with GM truck transmissions before?

I've had something similar. Apparently it's normal...my fix is to stay out of those speed/rpm ranges.

These damn transmissions are literally full of electronics- circuit boards and wires literally in the fluid. And the car makers like to make it hard as possible to service the transmissions, I know. But the pain and hassle is worth saving a $3-4k transmission.

[HeroHog]

Lucas makes a great ATF additive. It looks like STP in color and consistancy but it really helped my transmissions work better!

Lucas Transmission Fix

[zahc]

Yeah when my transmission does that I either pull it into 3rd or put in in OD, depending on what I was in before, or I enter my own cycle of accelerating from 38 to 42 and then coasting back from 42 to 38 or something.

[Tallpine]

Our little chevy has no way to check atf 

I have no idea how you are supposed to drain and refill it 

[Phyphor]

This is one of those less cut and dried mechanical things.

You should change the fluid at the recommended interval.  Not doings so WILL increase wear in your transmission.  The fluid has started to break down, the filter is at less then great flow, and little pieces of clutch pack are floating around in your transmission.  The fluid in your trans both cleans and cools a bunch of little hydraluic valves and clutches that are holding the full torque of your engine, so there's a lot of room for wear there.

*but*

Not changing it won't cause your trans to sieze tomorrow.  Or even next week.  The actual amount that trans wear will be increased is dependent on a whole bunch of factors, and is impossable to quantify.  It could be that it will drop your trans life from 150,000 miles to 145,000 miles.  Or it could drop the life from 100,000 mi to 65,000mi.(actually that's pretty extreme.  I doubt bad fluid could drop it that far, but you get the idea) It depends on a lot.

The question you need to answer is how much the $250 is worth to you now vs. longer life on the far end of the car's life.  If Dad's driving a KIA around for another year and dumping it, or is one of those folks that sells a car at X miles no matter what, then to heck with it.  If Dad's going to hold on to this thing untill the wheels fall off (he's making a bad call, it's a KIA) and it would be better to keep up on fluid changes now, as that will extend the time till catastrophic failure.  FWIW, I do all my (street) trans fluids every 50,000mi, and get 200,000-250,000 miles from my non-raced transmissions pretty reliably. (C6's and AOD's).

Also, if you're at all mechanicly inclined just do it yourself.  Mostly an auto trans service is drop the pan, pull off the filter, new pan and gasket, fill with new fluid.  Parts should be around $60, and the part that takes the most time is cleaning ATF off your arms. (There's rarely a drain plug).

In short, I recommend it, but the car probably won't self destruct if you don't.

QFT.  Which is why you may wanna consider installing your own drain plug on your pan, (which involves drilling a hole and welding a nut to the inside of the hole, then screwing a plug into said hole - not too hard and makes changing the fluid sooooo frickin' easy... )

[lupinus]

Our little chevy has no way to check atf 

I have no idea how you are supposed to drain and refill it 

Same with my wifes Saturn. You can open the fill cap and take a peak inside, but no way to know if it's low or just right. I suppose (or at least hope) there's an idiot light somewhere on the dash if it get's low.

Dumbest car I've ever played with though. I've always done my own oil changes, and never had a problem with any of them. For the life of my though that little thing fights me every time I try to do one on it. It's to the point I'm about ready to just pay the dealer to save me the hassle.