See the USA with TSA

[Tallpine]

The security searches just keep getting more and more widespread...

http://billingsgazette.com/news/national/article_4f593648-3ee7-57a3-9c1e-62a0f0b56911.html

How long till you have to be strip searched to travel most anywhere outside your own little neighborhood... five years... ten years... 

[MicroBalrog]

Think of it. It makes perfect sense.

After all, it's not a right to use the Metro. You can still drive... or walk...

Of course, driving isn't a right, either - it's a privilege. It's conditional on accepting traffic stops or On-Star monitoring of all cars, or whatever.

And as for walking, when you're in public, people can see you... you don't have any basis to objecting to a system of CCTV/face-recognition cameras, right?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

been going on for 5 years in nyc   not a big deal

[AZRedhawk44]

been going on for 5 years in nyc   not a big deal

Yes, it is a big deal.

It's a warrantless search with no probable cause or reasonable suspicion.

If When these metro PD's start to prosecute people that walk away from the search lines, then coming near a search point is essentially an arrest.

But... "if you ain't doing nothing wrong then you ain't got nothing to be worried about!"   

This cr@p will stop me from spending money in NYC, DC, Boston and anywhere else that implements it.  Which is a shame, because this year was going to be my east coast travel year.  I'm definitely going to Florida to see one of the last two space shuttle launches, and I wanted to see DC and New England while I was way off on "that side" of the country anyways.  I was going to plan it all using non-major airports and secondary air carriers, hopefully avoiding most of the TSA bullcr@p.

[Tallpine]

been going on for 5 years in nyc   not a big deal

Small steps, Ellie, small steps.

[BridgeRunner]

been going on for 5 years in nyc   not a big deal

That it's been going on for a while does not mean it's not a big deal.

I'll agree that it doesn't smack of the same level of intrusiveness and unreasonableness as nudie scans, shoe removal, and "enhanced" pat-downs, but random searches as a condition to travel or ordinary moving about are incompatible with a society that guarantees the right to be armed.  

An armed society is a terror-resistant society.  The answer to terrorism is that everyone should be ready to die every day, because that is the reality of human existence; and that everyone should be ready every day to defend himself, his family, and sometimes those around him, because that the reality of honorable living; and that everyone should be as prepared as he can to do so, because that is the reality of pragmatic living.  Random searches do almost nothing but create the illusion that people don't have to do those things because the state will handle them.  Oh yeah, and remind us all daily of the power of the state.  

Non-random searches based on reasonable suspicion are fine.  Correct exercise of the power of the state.  Random searches?  No way, don't care how long they've been going on, they're still incompatible with the American concept of freedom.

[Tallpine]

I'll agree that it doesn't smack of the same level of intrusiveness and unreasonableness as nudie scans, shoe removal, and "enhanced" pat-downs

They just haven't gotten that far yet.  Got to get people more accustomed to it first.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

are incompatible with a society that guarantees the right to be armed. 


its new york city  what right to be armed?  ditto dc.



and its the random nature of the searches that is the deterrent value

[dogmush]

are incompatible with a society that guarantees the right to be armed. 


its new york city  what right to be armed?  ditto dc.



and its the random nature of the searches that is the deterrent value

The right to be armed exists in New York and DC, It's just being infringed currently.  Review your concept of natural rights.

The fact it might have some *small* deterrant value in no way whatsoever affects the truth of:

they're still incompatible with the American concept of freedom.

[MicroBalrog]

are incompatible with a society that guarantees the right to be armed. 


its new york city  what right to be armed?  ditto dc.

There is no right to be armed in D.C.?

I believe there are some people who need to be informed of that.
This guy would be very interested in your legal opinion.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

come visit   show me

[BridgeRunner]

its new york city  what right to be armed?  ditto dc.

See dogmush.

and its the random nature of the searches that is the deterrent value

Serious crimes and committed criminals are not deterred by random searches, severe penalties or anything else.  You really think a suicide bomber is gonna be stopped by the possibility of being searched?  What consequences would make someone planning on blowing himself up think twice about blowing himself up?  Is there a (constitutional) penalty worse than being blown up?  

Yeah, sure, there is a deterrent value.  When I was in Israel, I always stashed my five inch blade outside the mall/religious site before I submitted my bag to be searched.  I was successfully deterred from bringing my blade into the Western Wall Plaza.  Heck, I even still remember the exact little crack in the wall of the nearby ruined church where I stashed it.  Yay deterrence.  

And the TSA has successfully deterred me from flying.  Waffle Houses from here to Louisiana rejoice, but I don't think any lives have been saved.  Yay deterrence.

Of course, the TSA has deterred a number of would-be suicide bombers from stashing their weapons in their carry-on bags.  Yay deterrence.

Deterrence works for reducing the incidence of relatively everyday crimes by relatively normal people: speeding, drunk driving, hunting laws, etc.  Ideologically motivated crimes are not deterred by the threat of detection or punishment.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Serious crimes and committed criminals are not deterred by random searches


um  yea they are  its a profession  professionals evaluate and minimize risk


we will find another place to work  without searches. 

[Tallpine]

we will find another place to work  without searches

That's comforting... 

[MicroBalrog]

Serious crimes and committed criminals are not deterred by random searches


um  yea they are  its a profession  professionals evaluate and minimize risk

Suicide bombing is not famous for the career advancement.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Suicide bombing is not famous for the career advancement.

true  but folks that are willing to die wanna accomplish their mission  not kill 2 cops at a table outside the station

[MicroBalrog]

true  but folks that are willing to die wanna accomplish their mission  not kill 2 cops at a table outside the station

Go two blocks away and take a bus at the nearest bus stop. You're not going to search people at every bus stop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmuel_HaNavi_bus_bombing

Or visit a cafe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike%27s_Place_suicide_bombing

[kgbsquirrel]

true  but folks that are willing to die wanna accomplish their mission  not kill 2 cops at a table outside the station

Odd, we had a collection of videos on hand for training purposes when I was playing Army with the 10th Mountain. They show suicide bombers in cars or on foot trying to get through checkpoints. When they were caught they opted to just blow themselves up right there and kill the "2 cops" (in these cases Army MP's). Bag checks in a crowded turn style area (which by the by make outstanding targets in and of themselves) prior to getting on a train will not deter those who have no intention of surviving their crime. The whole basis of deterrence is spun around the fact that result of getting caught will be sufficiently less desirable than the result of not getting caught so as to cause a person to choose not to engage in a particular crime. When the gravest punishment available is simply par with the intended outcome of the crime there can be no credible deterrence.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

once you are caught take anyone out you can.  but you try to get the most bang for your buck

[Scout26]

Odd, we had a collection of videos on hand for training purposes when I was playing Army with the 10th Mountain. They show suicide bombers in cars or on foot trying to get through checkpoints. When they were caught they opted to just blow themselves up right there and kill the "2 cops" (in these cases Army MP's). Bag checks in a crowded turn style area (which by the by make outstanding targets in and of themselves) prior to getting on a train will not deter those who have no intention of surviving their crime. The whole basis of deterrence is spun around the fact that result of getting caught will be sufficiently less desirable than the result of not getting caught so as to cause a person to choose not to engage in a particular crime. When the gravest punishment available is simply par with the intended outcome of the crime there can be no credible deterrence.

This ^^^^^^

We can't and won't "deter" homocide bombers.  The best we can do is force them to change their tactics.  Random searches won't force them to change their tactics, it actually improves their odds of accomplishing their mission.
1)  It further erodes our freedoms (which is what they hate).
2)  It gives them a newly created target.  A large crowd of people.  They don't even have to have any intent of getting through the checkpoint/search area to cause mass causalities.  

[Grandpa Shooter]

Com'on TP, you know that all we really need is a national ID card and all this foolish searching would stop immediately.  Once someone declared their allegiance to Big Brother they wouldn't want to harm anyone because being part of the collective would make them feel so warm and fuzzy that they would immediately become non-violent.

[DonTron]

Quit whining, you guys.

"Screeners swabbed some riders' bags and inspected them in at least two Metro train stations early Tuesday, in Maryland and Virginia suburbs of the nation's capital. The checks took less than one minute each."

[RocketMan]

Quit whining, you guys.

"The checks took less than one minute each."

Oh, okay. The usurpation of your rights took less than a minute? That makes it all better.

[Physics]

Even if it completely erased any potential terrorist threat, forever, I still wouldn't want it.  I would rather be free than safe.  By safe I mean the police/government protecting me.  Giving me freedom allows me to protect myself and frankly, I can do a damn better job than the government can (in most cases, there are a few exceptions).  This is .

[vaskidmark]

Quit whining, you guys.

"Screeners swabbed some riders' bags and inspected them in at least two Metro train stations early Tuesday, in Maryland and Virginia suburbs of the nation's capital. The checks took less than one minute each."

Does anyone not a Metro rider have any idea how many people pass the turnstiles in a one-minute period early on a weekday morning?  Or what the general mood of those commuters is?  (I mean the ones who got up in time to take their meds before leaving home - not the ones who wait till they get to the office to swallow the happy pills.)

Backing up the line can have a ripple effect, and in the seat of the federal government that is not a pleasant thought to contemplate.

stay safe.