Author Topic: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat  (Read 6524 times)

Ben

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Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« on: February 01, 2011, 10:24:21 AM »
This is the first I've heard of this. It's also one of those stories that screams out at you that there's a bunch of information behind the scenes. I won't hazard to guess if it was a robbery attempt or not, but I will hazard to guess that "diplomat" may be a convenient job title to keep this guy in the Embassy, possibly doing other work for the US.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/02/01/pakistani-court-blocks-release-american-suspect/?test=latestnews
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French G.

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2011, 01:33:10 PM »
Yeah, looking past the fact that the guy is a badass that killed two attackers, the whole radioed his buddies for help and they got there so fast they ran over a person on the way screams "NOT A DIPLOMAT!"
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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2011, 01:50:59 PM »
Wonder if the attackers had inconvenient government ties? Betting after some public posturing this gets resolved quietly sub rosa.
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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2011, 02:39:23 PM »
If "Diplomatic immunity" is to mean anything in Pakistan, unless the USA waives diplomatic immunity, the most they can do is declare the person "persona non grata" and kick him out of the country.

Anything else, and diplomatic relations become meaningless.
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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2011, 02:50:10 PM »
If "Diplomatic immunity" is to mean anything in Pakistan, unless the USA waives diplomatic immunity, the most they can do is declare the person "persona non grata" and kick him out of the country.

Anything else, and diplomatic relations become meaningless.

Under normal circumstances, I'd agree with you.
But the current administration has proven themselves inept at foriegn policy, and afraid of standing up to anyone who challenges them.
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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2011, 01:44:12 PM »
I'll believe this administration means it when they revoke diplomatic immunity to all Pakistani representatives in the US and kick them out.  This is starting to look very serious.
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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2011, 04:14:26 AM »
Quote
A third man died... hit by a car ... speeding toward the scene to aid Davis.  Police want to question (but have not located?!) that driver.

Quote
The U.S. says Davis... is technical/admin staff at the embassy... has not identified his job or explained why he had a gun. ... speculation... may be a CIA agent... questions of whether he qualifies for diplomatic immunity.

fed.gov wouldn't get bent out of shape this much if he were a contractor, would they?  Seems like he must be CIA or similar.
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Ben

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2011, 12:16:00 AM »
Interesting further developments. Putting my tin foil hat on, I wonder if the assailants were really just run of the mill criminals, or Pakistani operatives (given the apparent animosity between their intelligence service and ours). It's certainly beginning to look more complex.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110221/wl_nm/us_pakistan_usa_davis_cia
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De Selby

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2011, 12:29:14 AM »
Fortunately for this guy, all that talk about how spies And other non-uniformed combatants have no rights and can be shot summarily is wrong.  He still has the right to a fair trial, which might be a good basis for gettng him out of Pakistan. 

Some of us here might want to review our positions on the rights of spies next time a gitmo discussion comes up; this sort of thing is precisely the consequence of claiming that your captives have no rights;  someone gets one of yours, and it's very difficult to bring them home
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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2011, 12:59:11 AM »
Impressive shooting. Drawing against the drop on two moving targets and neutralizing them whilst driving a vehicle.

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2011, 11:13:50 AM »
Fortunately for this guy, all that talk about how spies And other non-uniformed combatants have no rights and can be shot summarily is wrong.  He still has the right to a fair trial, which might be a good basis for gettng him out of Pakistan. 

Some of us here might want to review our positions on the rights of spies next time a gitmo discussion comes up; this sort of thing is precisely the consequence of claiming that your captives have no rights;  someone gets one of yours, and it's very difficult to bring them home

Really, what a pathetic stretch.

Uh, you might want to read the part about dude openly being part of the embassy and having diplomatic immunity as well as the part about his being part of the security contingent at the embassy.

Even is he was a spy, Geneva or any other war convention is not applicable, as with trials, unless the bed wetters currently in the White House go wobbly.

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roo_ster

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French G.

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2011, 11:57:05 AM »
I like how he was doing advance work, scouting to find out what areas to keep the important people out of.

Item #1. Stay away from that @#%$& ATM!!!


Our Admin needs to grow a pair and get this guy home, now.
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De Selby

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2011, 06:00:51 PM »
Really, what a pathetic stretch.

Uh, you might want to read the part about dude openly being part of the embassy and having diplomatic immunity as well as the part about his being part of the security contingent at the embassy.

Even is he was a spy, Geneva or any other war convention is not applicable, as with trials, unless the bed wetters currently in the White House go wobbly.



Being a consular employee doesnt give you immunity for paramilitary activities, sorry.  Of course he does have rights though, which is the point.  If Pakistan followed the same law we adopted on guantanamo thy would consider themselves within limits to imprison him for life without trial, waterboard him daily for information, and never allow him to speak to anyone from he US again.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2011, 06:57:10 PM »
Being a consular employee doesnt give you immunity for paramilitary activities, sorry.  Of course he does have rights though, which is the point.  If Pakistan followed the same law we adopted on guantanamo thy would consider themselves within limits to imprison him for life without trial, waterboard him daily for information, and never allow him to speak to anyone from he US again.

Your strained equivalence is risible.  There have been many cases in the usa where a foreign power' embassy staff with diplomatic immunity were caught spying.  They were dealt with in the usual way, sans gitmo.

Also, to call a gunfight with burglars or uc paki internal security "paramilitary activities" requires a perversion of cognition.  Or dishonesty.

Truly, your posts have become self-parodies.
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roo_ster

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2011, 07:07:49 PM »
indeed  we have many cases in dc.  one where a son of a diplomat raped a girl  then later shot a bar bouncer.  he got on a plane and left.  on the flipside though i got to watch the ambassador to one african country bring his kid to the police station "to face the full responsibility for his action" after dc cops cut him loose the night before. the two poles of honorable behavior
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Ben

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2011, 07:14:36 PM »
Also, to call a gunfight with burglars or uc paki internal security "paramilitary activities" requires a perversion of cognition.  Or dishonesty.

Also, Gitmo detainees needn't fear their food being poisoned by the guards because they made a crack about God.
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De Selby

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2011, 08:37:06 PM »
Your strained equivalence is risible.  There have been many cases in the usa where a foreign power' embassy staff with diplomatic immunity were caught spying.  They were dealt with in the usual way, sans gitmo.

Also, to call a gunfight with burglars or uc paki internal security "paramilitary activities" requires a perversion of cognition.  Or dishonesty.

Truly, your posts have become self-parodies.

Yeah, I'm sure that gunfight was totally random  =( 

And the reason spies in the past were dealt with in the usual way is that the purported "spies can be shot summarily" rule has never existed; that's the point.  I'm not saying that's the law; I'm saying it never was.  Where we went wrong was pretending that it was for Gitmo; fortunately for Mr Davis the world has not adopted that same policy.
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roo_ster

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2011, 10:34:34 PM »
Yeah, I'm sure that gunfight was totally random  =( 

And the reason spies in the past were dealt with in the usual way is that the purported "spies can be shot summarily" rule has never existed; that's the point.  I'm not saying that's the law; I'm saying it never was.  Where we went wrong was pretending that it was for Gitmo; fortunately for Mr Davis the world has not adopted that same policy.

Well, I really do wonder if you ready anything about the middle east & C asia.  Here are three links with data from one google search.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Paki reported intentional homicide rate 36% higher in Pakistan than in the USA

Rate per 100k inhabitants
USA 5.0
Pakistan 6.8
venezuela 49

But, Paki can sure beat Venezuela over the head, with only 1/7 the murder rate.


http://nayyab.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/increasing-crime-rate-in-pakistan/
"The question is that what are the main reasons of crime in Pakistan society and why it is increasing so rapidly..."
28JAN2010

http://pakistanherald.com/Articles/The-10-year-crime-picture-gets-dirtier-2261
"...during the last 10 years, crime throughout Pakistan has increased by almost 50 per cent in this period. Official figures, however, present a pathetic situation in case of Sindh and Islamabad where the crime rate has risen 105 per cent and 112 per cent respectively during the 2000-2009 period. A major crime increase in the Sindh province has been recorded during the last two years as against the previous eights years of General Musharraf. During the last ten years Punjab saw crime increase of 46%, Balochistan shows an increase of 47% whereas the NWFP showed the lowest increase of 24%."
23MAR2010



You still intentionally obfuscate the difference between the conduct of war under some of the conventions and pacts and espionage by folks with embassy covers & diplomatic immunity.  They are not comparable circumstances.

At this point, I assume ill intent on your part.

Regards,

roo_ster

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De Selby

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2011, 06:39:26 AM »
rooster, what you're missing is that no embassy/diplomatic cover of his kind protects someone from armed activities on foreign soil.  There's really no question here; Davis does not have a legal leg to stand on in terms of diplomatic immunity.

You might not see what he's doing as the same thing as an armed Taliban member running around America, but the Pakistanis most definitely would - and fortunately, again, they are not applying the Gitmo rule to him.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2011, 07:28:25 AM »
rooster, what you're missing is that no embassy/diplomatic cover of his kind protects someone from armed activities on foreign soil.  There's really no question here; Davis does not have a legal leg to stand on in terms of diplomatic immunity.

You might not see what he's doing as the same thing as an armed Taliban member running around America, but the Pakistanis most definitely would - and fortunately, again, they are not applying the Gitmo rule to him.

And now you're trying to overlay a self defense shooting with intentional military action or other premeditated armed conflict. Still ain't passin' the sniff test there, chuckles.

De Selby

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2011, 07:47:38 AM »
And now you're trying to overlay a self defense shooting with intentional military action or other premeditated armed conflict. Still ain't passin' the sniff test there, chuckles.

Okay, seriously - do you think if a Pakistani agent shot some Americans in self defense during a spy meet in New York city we wouldn't brand that to be paramilitary action?  Arguing that this was a random robbery turned shootout is just silly; and in any case, he went and put finishing shots into the robbers in plain sight.  It's not a self defense case by any stretch.

But the main point is, self-defense or not doesn't determine your level of immunity; Pakistan has a legal right to put him to trial for this and let their courts determine if the shootings actually were self-defense.

The only cards on the table here are a trade/payment.  The diplomatic cover story does not stand up to any legal scrutiny whatsoever; the only reason I can imagine it was floated was in the hope that it would give Pakistan the propaganda cover needed to release the guy.  That didn't work, so now another route will have to be taken.

I hope the administration is willing to pay whatever price is necessary to get him home; he put his behind on the line for the US, the US needs to step up to bat here.  The point of my comment is to illustrate that dismissing international conventions, and pretending that any armed non-uniformed fighter can be shot on sight, are extremely dangerous positions.  If Pakistan had adopted the rules I see bandied about here with regard to spies and non-uniformed types, Mr Davis would have zero hope of getting home.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2011, 09:25:05 AM »
Okay, seriously - do you think if a Pakistani agent shot some Americans in self defense during a spy meet in New York city we wouldn't brand that to be paramilitary action?  Arguing that this was a random robbery turned shootout is just silly; and in any case, he went and put finishing shots into the robbers in plain sight.  It's not a self defense case by any stretch.

But the main point is, self-defense or not doesn't determine your level of immunity; Pakistan has a legal right to put him to trial for this and let their courts determine if the shootings actually were self-defense.

The only cards on the table here are a trade/payment.  The diplomatic cover story does not stand up to any legal scrutiny whatsoever; the only reason I can imagine it was floated was in the hope that it would give Pakistan the propaganda cover needed to release the guy.  That didn't work, so now another route will have to be taken.

I hope the administration is willing to pay whatever price is necessary to get him home; he put his behind on the line for the US, the US needs to step up to bat here.  The point of my comment is to illustrate that dismissing international conventions, and pretending that any armed non-uniformed fighter can be shot on sight, are extremely dangerous positions.  If Pakistan had adopted the rules I see bandied about here with regard to spies and non-uniformed types, Mr Davis would have zero hope of getting home.

Wow, you just made a whole lot of unverified assumptions and comparisons to this event.

First off, using the comparison of a spy meeting, do you have any actual evidence to present that he was going to a spy meeting and that this is a valid comparison? I worked for the ONI and through them the NSA/CSS, that doesn't mean I was going to a uber-secret-squirrel meeting every time I walked to the bazaar in Bagram, Afghanistan.

Second, that it wasn't a robbery. Have you ever been to Pakistan, or even any of it's neighboring countries? To assume out of hand that a white westerner would never be targeted for something so pedestrian as a robbery in what I will kindly call a developing nation is idiocy.

Third, your claim that he delivered a coup-de-grace to each of his attackers which I have yet to read anywhere. In the quiet words of wikipedia, [citation needed].

Fourth, have you ever actually read the Geneva conventions? How about the Hague and Vienna conventions? Well, lucky for you I have. It was required reading considering that I actually carried a Geneva conventions identification card for 8 years, and speaking of which, guess what? Those types of ID cards (the ID cards I would like to point out that the unlawful, non-uniformed combatants captured in Afghanistan and Iraq did not possess, those fellas in gitmo you keep comparing this American to) still count and extend the protections of those conventions to the holder, even if they are out of uniform, and this of course presumes that the embassy did not formally declare his diplomatic status under the Vienna convention. Which they did. Now, lets look at the actual encounter...

Quote
A U.S. source familiar with other official reporting from Pakistan said that according to Davis' account of the shooting incident, two men on a motorbike cornered him and pulled a gun on him as he was driving on a street in Lahore.

The source said Davis, believing his life was in danger, drew his weapon and shot the men through the window of his car. At some point, the source said, Davis got out of his car and used his mobile phone to take pictures of the assailants.

This style of attack is actually very familiar. Attacking someone while they are stuck in traffic from a motorbike is actually a fairly damned common method of operation. I can recall at least two instances of it occurring in Greece (a country I would consider far more secure than Pakistan any day of the bloody week) against US military and diplomatic persons that were also required reading. In one of them, the diplomat and his driver were murdered, in the other the military person, who was also driving, managed to notice them in time and swerved his vehicle wildly into oncoming traffic to evade them, he was still shot several times but managed to survive. Besides, now a days if you want someone dead, you just stick a limpet mine to their car (Iran) or mag-dump an Uzi into their chest while driving beside them (Greece, twice), you do not, however, force their car into an immobile position and then try to coerce them with pistols. That's the modus operandi of thieves. Now dead thieves.

De Selby

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2011, 10:00:06 AM »
kgb,

Here're some articles talking about the shooting:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12427518

Suffice to say, it's in question, and obviously the Pakistani authorities remain unconvinced that it was self defense.  Guess who gets to make that call?  That's right...Pakistan.  Yet another reason why scrupulously upholding these conventions, especially when we capture non-uniformed types (like the alleged Al Qaeda members we sent to Gitmo), is vitally important for people like Mr Davis.

Regarding the international conventions that apply, I'll have to brush up on my international law courses for every detail (those are the courses where we lawyers learn to keep people like yourself out of trouble).  No need for a complicated review to answer this question, though, as there are different protections that extend to different types of embassy and consular employees. Consular employees cannot avoid murder charges with their limited immunity.  That point has been summarised in the news, and is accurate.

Most of the stories coming out look like rapid attempts to give enough cover to Pakistan to let the man go without trial, claiming to its own people that its hands are tied.  The quick attention and suicide of one of the deceased's wives is making that harder by the day.

Again, back to the main point:  now that the .gov of Pakistan has alleged he's a murderer, and concluded (rightly) that he does not have immunity from murder charges, how unfortunate would it be if they also adopted the fictional rule that spies have no rights whatsoever?  That was what underscored Gitmo, and I'm glad it hasn't caught fashion.


"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

TommyGunn

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2011, 11:29:21 AM »
Being a consular employee doesnt give you immunity for paramilitary activities, sorry.  Of course he does have rights though, which is the point.  If Pakistan followed the same law we adopted on guantanamo thy would consider themselves within limits to imprison him for life without trial, waterboard him daily for information, and never allow him to speak to anyone from he US again.

Quote from: American held in Lahore is CIA contractor: sources (Yahoo News)
A U.S. source familiar with other official reporting from Pakistan said that according to Davis' account of the shooting incident, two men on a motorbike cornered him and pulled a gun on him as he was driving on a street in Lahore.

The source said Davis, believing his life was in danger, drew his weapon and shot the men through the window of his car. At some point, the source said, Davis got out of his car and used his mobile phone to take pictures of the assailants.

He took the pictures to protect himself and corroborate his story about what had happened
, the source said.


So, he was engaging in "paramilitary activities" and he photographed the dead with his mobile phone camera? [tinfoil]

Okay, seriously - do you think if a Pakistani agent shot some Americans in self defense during a spy meet in New York city we wouldn't brand that to be paramilitary action?  Arguing that this was a random robbery turned shootout is just silly; and in any case, he went and put finishing shots into the robbers in plain sight.  It's not a self defense case by any stretch.
If it WAS a case of self-defense, we might very avoid labeling it "paramilitary activity."  Strangely, and this may really annoy you, I do not regard  "put(ing) finishing shots into the robbers in plain sight" a sign this was NOT an act of self defense.  He was a security expert, most likely trained to be thorough, and people will default to training in adrenaline-charged situations.  

But the main point is, self-defense or not doesn't determine your level of immunity; Pakistan has a legal right to put him to trial for this and let their courts determine if the shootings actually were self-defense.
And you really think he'd get a fair trial amidst anti-American crowds wailing for him to be hanged?? [tinfoil]

.....I hope the administration is willing to pay whatever price is necessary to get him home; he put his behind on the line for the US, the US needs to step up to bat here.   The point of my comment is to illustrate that dismissing international conventions, and pretending that any armed non-uniformed fighter can be shot on sight, are extremely dangerous positions.  If Pakistan had adopted the rules I see bandied about here with regard to spies and non-uniformed types, Mr Davis would have zero hope of getting home.
There's about the only thing you've said with which I can actually agree. [popcorn]





Again, back to the main point:  now that the .gov of Pakistan has alleged he's a murderer, and concluded (rightly) that he does not have immunity from murder charges, how unfortunate would it be if they also adopted the fictional rule that spies have no rights whatsoever?  That was what underscored Gitmo, and I'm glad it hasn't caught fashion.


What is this "thing" with Gitmo you have?  The people we have there are not spies, they're terrorists -- unlawful combatants, like Taliban and Al Qaeda.  
Some have been released -- to be captured again on the battlefield.  Some can't be returned to their homelands because they would not be accepted there.  
We held German soldiers as POWs withing continental America during WW2 and no one was wringing their wrists whining about "fair trials" and "military commissions" -- they were housed and fed and usually treated pretty well.
The Gitmo detainees have actually, in many cases, gained weight, as they are now eating better than they did when they were out on the battlefield.

As for Mr. Davis, there is no way in my opinion he is ever going to get a fair trial in Pakistan.  The facts do not prove him guilty beyond any kind of doubt, let alone a "reasonable" one.  The "diplomatic immunity" claim may be valid or not, but ot would have to be waived by a superior before Pakistan would be allowed to try him.  Geeesh .... that means Hillary Clinton??    [tinfoil]  Oh well, elections have consequences. :facepalm:
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

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Re: Pakistan Blocks Diplomatic Immunity for US Diplomat
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2011, 01:07:43 PM »
The people we have there are not spies, they're terrorists

therein lies the rub.  when we stuck folks in there caught by others or turned in for bounties by opposing tribes we got more chaff than wheat.  and we were used to settle old scores
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I