Author Topic: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote  (Read 3360 times)

Monkeyleg

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Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« on: May 04, 2011, 11:50:04 PM »
Two bills, one shall-issue, one Alaska-style. AJ, Strings, Bedlamite: make sure they don't water the bills down. No amendments. Make the bills clean.

Story is here

AJ Dual

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2011, 12:20:56 AM »
Damn... I wasn't expecting the two bills in parallel like that.    :O

Now I have to figure out if there's optional permits in the Constitutional Carry bill for people who want reciprocity in other states.

I really thought it would be one bill, Constitutional Carry, Shall-Issue optional Issue with training, and the Constitutional Carry provisions would likely be stripped off as a disposable bargaining chip to make smooth sailing for a clean Shall-Issue bill with good school/university and alcohol/restaurant rules in it.

As to private property, I'm hoping there's some specific signage requirements like a TX .30-06 sign in size, font and wording (that's just barely big and ugly enough that it dissuades people from posting...) AND for it to have mere "trespass authority" that must be verbally relayed to someone, who then refuses to leave, and is then finally chargeable with misdemeanor trespass.

Monkeyleg, IIRC, didn't the previous versions of the PPA (personal protection act as it was called then) had the "weak sign/verbal trespass & refusal to comply required"?

Under those rules, they're giving a HUGE wink-n-nod/quid-pro-quo that "concealed means concealed".
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2011, 12:34:47 AM »
Quote
Monkeyleg, IIRC, didn't the previous versions of the PPA (personal protection act as it was called then) had the "weak sign/verbal trespass & refusal to comply required"?

In at least one of the three bills, the anti's were able to amend the bill to require an 8 1/2" x 11" sign--just right for faxing. (Had the bill passed, they intended to fax signs to as many businesses as possible).

IIRC, all three required verbal warning.

AJ Dual

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2011, 12:47:06 AM »
In at least one of the three bills, the anti's were able to amend the bill to require an 8 1/2" x 11" sign--just right for faxing. (Had the bill passed, they intended to fax signs to as many businesses as possible).

IIRC, all three required verbal warning.

Hell, with the verbal warning AND it being required that the carrier be a bonehead who refuses to leave just to have simple misdemeanor trespass, they could allow a 1/2" "no guns ban-stripe circle" sticker 1" off the ground near the dirt and I could not care less... Don't print, don't show, and it'll just become a non-issue really quick, no matter if Jerri Boniva's fax machine starts on fire, she uses it so much.

Although having it be harder to post than that is still very good. The legal and ethical issues behind privately owned public space is different, and they should be forced to deal with the icky issues of a big bright sign if they're so paranoid. One version does mention ORANGE which is good, although the 8.5x11" is right in there... They should amend that. Not sure if it's every entrance either.

Are you on Opencarry? http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?90031-Here-is-the-concealed-carry-bill.

Reading these bills is like eating soup with a comb...  :P

I'm not sure I'm seeing any training requirements even in the shall issue bill...  :O    Poor Bill if this is so..  =D
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 01:04:16 AM by AJ Dual »
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2011, 12:41:55 AM »
Tell those legislative idiots to merge the freaking things.

No permit means no reciprocity (yes, you can get non-res florida but why should you have to?). 

You want Alaska Carry, not Vermont.
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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2011, 12:56:30 AM »
And we DO want the option of getting a permit: Michigan (at least) will not honor a non resident permit from anywhere...
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2011, 01:03:42 AM »
And we DO want the option of getting a permit: Michigan (at least) will not honor a non resident permit from anywhere...

That's Alaska Carry.

Well, AK/AZ/WY/(+ MT and now maybe WI carry soon, hopefully)

Well, whatta know, that's just over 10% of the states with no permit required, with more than half of those in the past two years.

The pacing is starting to resemble the shall-issue wave.

Poor Brady's, someone better collect their belts and shoelaces.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2011, 01:36:57 AM »
Just posted in that thread, I assume I'll be being called an enemy of liberty or some such nonsense for suggesting that having a permit option with training along with permitless is better than "Vermont Carry".
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

AJ Dual

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2011, 12:23:25 PM »
Just posted in that thread, I assume I'll be being called an enemy of liberty or some such nonsense for suggesting that having a permit option with training along with permitless is better than "Vermont Carry".

No one here thinks that.  =)

What I'd like to see is a three tier system.

- Constitutional Carry.
- Optional permits for reciprocity.
- Optional permits with additional optional training endorsement for enhanced reciprocity.

Training should be STRONGLY encouraged for everyone, perhaps with some kind of incentive for getting it, (cheaper, longer lasting permits for tier 2 and 3 perhaps) but fall short of ever being mandatory. Ultimately, training is a potential discriminatory hurdle. The widow on a fixed budget and who has her late husband's revolver could very well fail to meet any portion of a training class, or marksmanship requirement, but there's no reason to believe she needs to, just to gut-shoot some mugger right on top of her either. I'd argue the same for some people who are legally blind.

Some more good things I'd like to see.

- Blaze orange signage larger than 8.5x11" (prevent anti-gun .org spam faxing) with specific wording, font size and graphics, required at EVERY public entrance, not just one.
- Further requirement that someone discovered carrying in a posted area be verbally asked to leave by the owner or authorized staff, and it's then trespass if the person still refuses to leave.
- All Constitutional Carriers and licensed carriers are deemed as being "Permitted" in regards to fed.gov GFSZ's.
- Lockers at all prohibited .gov security areas for carriers.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 02:27:07 PM by AJ Dual »
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2011, 01:42:45 PM »
I tried to note that it (only) took us 9 years to get from no carry to where we are now and we are still making incremental improvements. 

Not that you guys should plan to compromise given your legislative and Governor situation but I would be leery of some of the all-or-nothing-ists on your own side letting the "perfect" be the enemy of the good.

On a different note...

Has anyone confirmed with the Feds that the "Montana option" is valid per licensing in re GFSZA?

We don't have it, the GFSZA just isn't enforced by the state or locals and the Feds don't do traffic patrol and we haven't had a case of a good guy getting hit with charges.  Our local Fed prosecutors are too smart for that.

Anyway, that really needs to be addressed by the Congress at this point.
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"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

StopTheGrays

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2011, 01:44:46 PM »
Quote
- Blaze orange signage larger than 8.5x11" (prevent anti-gun .org spam faxing) with specific wording, font size and graphics, required at EVERY public entrance, not just one.
Framed and posted at 5' or higher. Also, have the warning in Spanish on the lower half of the sign. Everything else has Spanish why not these signs.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2011, 02:24:25 PM »
I tried to note that it (only) took us 9 years to get from no carry to where we are now and we are still making incremental improvements.  

Not that you guys should plan to compromise given your legislative and Governor situation but I would be leery of some of the all-or-nothing-ists on your own side letting the "perfect" be the enemy of the good.

On a different note...

Has anyone confirmed with the Feds that the "Montana option" is valid per licensing in re GFSZA?

We don't have it, the GFSZA just isn't enforced by the state or locals and the Feds don't do traffic patrol and we haven't had a case of a good guy getting hit with charges.  Our local Fed prosecutors are too smart for that.

Anyway, that really needs to be addressed by the Congress at this point.


I think the fact the legislators threw out a VT/AK/AZ style Constitutional Carry bill, and a more standard Shall-Issue bill simultaneously to see which one sinks and which one swims tells me they're being very pragmatic about this, while gunning (pun intended) for everything they can get at the same time. So while there's been some very BIG bones thrown to the absolutists, they're hedging their bets pretty shrewdly here.

I don't think anyone has tested the "neener neener" clause (as I've seen someone call it) in the Montana treatment of GFSZA, but it does not hurt it to be in there as long as there was a severability clause in the rest of the carry bill. Presumably it would have to go up to the SCOTUS for final determination. I think most are content to let it lie as untested and unenforced like you pointed out.

Framed and posted at 5' or higher. Also, have the warning in Spanish on the lower half of the sign. Everything else has Spanish why not these signs.


I like how you think, to not put it in Spanish would be "discriminatory", and very difficult for Lefties to argue against.  :angel: And it would have the nice side effect of making the sign twice as large, or needing to have two large bright embarrassing signs posted.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 02:29:07 PM by AJ Dual »
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2011, 02:30:56 PM »
AJ,

If I read the incredibly hard to read posting of the Con Carry bill at OCcarry it isn't AK/AZ/WY/MT Carry as there's no permit added.

Remember, if there's no permit available it is just Vermont with all the negatives Vermonters have to deal with in terms of reciprocity.

The simultaneously available permit is what makes it AK,AZ,WY and MT carry.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 02:38:41 PM by Matthew Carberry »
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"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2011, 02:37:23 PM »
Framed and posted at 5' or higher. Also, have the warning in Spanish on the lower half of the sign. Everything else has Spanish why not these signs.


Why do they hate immigrants?  Excellent way to frame the request/demand.

If they want a burden on carry, play along and make the burden a real burden on the burdeners.  
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"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

cosine

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2011, 03:32:54 PM »
New acronym I haven't seen before... GFSZ = gun free school zone?

I'm actually kind of fuzzy on how that works... all I know is something about schools and 1000 feet. What are the specifics?
Andy

Monkeyleg

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2011, 03:42:57 PM »
Quote
Framed and posted at 5' or higher. Also, have the warning in Spanish on the lower half of the sign. Everything else has Spanish why not these signs.

What about asians? Pakistani's? Indians? Vietnamese? There's a lot of languages that have to go on those signs. Make them use 2 point type and require that each sign have an accompanying magnifying glass.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2011, 03:45:59 PM »
New acronym I haven't seen before... GFSZ = gun free school zone?
I'm actually kind of fuzzy on how that works... all I know is something about schools and 1000 feet. What are the specifics?

Federal Law from '96(?).  Went up to the Supremes in Lopez(?), they said it was unCon because Congress had no authority, went back to Congress who waved the magic Commerce Clause wand and repassed it in '98(?).  Hasn't been challenged since but to my knowledge haven't been any "good guys" convicted on it, might have been an add-on to actual crimes committed by bad guys though.

Anyway, it says that possession (not just on-body carry, so in your car even if locked up counts) of a loaded firearm within 1000' of a school's grounds (note that isn't from a theoretical center or the building walls but from every inch of the actual perimeter boundary), is a Federal offense unless you are on your own land (and this is fuzzy as I recall) or have a license from your state of residence that involves a background check.

That means unlicensed carry or possession of any loaded gun within that 1000' feet is a crime, even if legal in your state.

Note it also does not cover out-of-state permits at all, so if your state doesn't have a permit you are by law a violator.  If you are travelling with reciprocity you are a violator.

Given that 40+ states allow unlicensed open carry and 5+ allow some form of unlicensed CCW (including only in rural areas and while recreating outdoors, not just VT/AK style) it is past time for Congress to repeal it or at least change the wording to mirror "Park Carry" and say "as allowed in the state you are in" (which I think would be the compromise to get it passed given the nancies in Congress).  
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"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2011, 03:46:48 PM »
Does the NRA pay its state reps?
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2011, 03:57:03 PM »
What about asians? Pakistani's? Indians? Vietnamese? There's a lot of languages that have to go on those signs. Make them use 2 point type and require that each sign have an accompanying magnifying glass.

No no, 2 point type for all isn't equitable.  What we need on these signs is proportional representation, a "quota" if you will.

So the font size for each language will need to be determined by state tax and census records and modified each year, with date certification from the state, to maintain legality.
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PTK

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2011, 03:59:07 PM »
America seems to once again be leaning toward personal freedom.

I'm extremely pleased about this trend. :)
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brimic

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Re: Wisconsin: two CCW bills coming up for a vote
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2011, 08:02:56 AM »
Quote
What about asians? Pakistani's? Indians? Vietnamese? There's a lot of languages that have to go on those signs.
The language on the signage should be tied to whatever languages are used at the WI DMVs. Last time I was there, I counted at least 5. Some of use have bad eye sight and need things printed very large in order to read them.
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