Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...

[French G.]

We're all antsy because it is going to be one big event that makes RKBA go poof at a national level. Who knows what? Mass violence, emergency powers after economic mess, terrorists? Doesn't matter, just needs to be a big enough ZOMG panic to get enough idiots to pass a bill. Then all the right to carry/Heller type progress gone, instantly.  I seriously expect armed dissent within my lifetime, be pissed if it doesn't happen because that can only mean it's passed to my kid's generation and I'm not there to get them through it.

Oh yeah, this was about 401Ks. I expect that I am the canary in the coal mine. Gov't based TSP will *poof* vansh before 401Ks I expect. Then we're right back to that armed dissent thingy. Hmmm, old peoples with guns and no money to kick it on the beach or buy the medication they need. That oughta work out well.

[seeker_two]

Oh yeah, this was about 401Ks. I expect that I am the canary in the coal mine. Gov't based TSP will *poof* vansh before 401Ks I expect. Then we're right back to that armed dissent thingy. Hmmm, old peoples with guns and no money to kick it on the beach or buy the medication they need. That oughta work out well.

...and they're the ones who won't care about dying because they're expecting to....

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

And the magazines over 10 rounds are legal. THey've not actually progressed in a significant way beyond their achievements in 1986, and in fact it remains "only" the machineguns and the other guns. And even that is not permanent.

A 0.6% tax on payments from the account is about as similar to the government seizing the account itself, as the excise tax on firearms is to a ban on all guns. If the excise tax were 0.6%, that is.

Of course, even in Ireland this plan has not passed yet.

more reality blasphemy?!   for shame

[HankB]

. . . Hmmm, old peoples with guns and no money to kick it on the beach or buy the medication they need. That oughta work out well.

...and they're the ones who won't care about dying because they're expecting to....

A spry oldster who figures he can meekly move into a cardboard box under a bridge where he'll be found in spring . . . or do something. And maybe end up getting three squares a day in the Graybar Hotel? Some choice.

I'd HATE to be known as the politician responsible for putting the old-timer into that position.

[RoadKingLarry]

A spry oldster who figures he can meekly move into a cardboard box under a bridge where he'll be found in spring . . . or do something. And maybe end up getting three squares a day in the Graybar Hotel? Some choice.

I'd HATE to be known as the politician responsible for putting the old-timer into that position.

No worries, the press will just label them as right wing religious fanatics and gun nuts. Problem solved.

[longeyes]

We're all antsy because it is going to be one big event that makes RKBA go poof at a national level. Who knows what? Mass violence, emergency powers after economic mess, terrorists? Doesn't matter, just needs to be a big enough ZOMG panic to get enough idiots to pass a bill. Then all the right to carry/Heller type progress gone, instantly.  I seriously expect armed dissent within my lifetime, be pissed if it doesn't happen because that can only mean it's passed to my kid's generation and I'm not there to get them through it.

There's no reason to worry about the "one big event that makes RKBA go poof," because when that one big event arrives, accompanied by many smaller events, the stuff will have hit the fan and general mood in the nation will be very different from what it is now.  The raw feelings will no longer be hidden behind political correctness, they'll be out there for everyone to see and hear.  People are not going to give up their guns when they see the ground really moving under their feet.  At that point anyone who wants to gun-grab will be discredited and dismissed and will have a lot more to be concerned about than passing anti-gun legislation.

[RevDisk]

Sigh.  Congress is not going to seize 401(k)s or IRAs.  It won't happen.  For the same reason that Social Security will not be fixed.  Old people are the single largest cohesive voting block in the United States.  Fighting them is politically suicidal. 

I wouldn't blink an eye at retirement accounts being taxed, the rules changed or whatnot.  Not for a moment.  But total or majority seizure is out of the question.

[longeyes]

Seized?  Probably not.  How about converted?  Into long-term treasuries?  For "safety," for our own good, for the Good of the Nation?

[RevDisk]

Seized?  Probably not.  How about converted?  Into long-term treasuries?  For "safety," for our own good, for the Good of the Nation?

Mandatory conversion to Treasury securities?  Ok, I'll say it's not impossible.  Some pension plans already are.  Credit unions by regulation have to hold assets in "safe" securities, which generally means T-notes.  But only universal compulsory T-note retirement accounts?  Eh, I'm not seeing that. 

So, my guess on that would be "possible, but unlikely".  Again, old people.  They are the overwhelming largest chunk of federal spending, and will be for quite some time.  Expect any "solution" to soak young and middle age workers.  You know, exactly like now. 

Note, I'm not saying the current group of old folks caused this situation.  They did pay in, and I respect that.  I also know it's not going to last until my retirement.  I respect that part as well.  It's a situation with no magic solution.  The closest is "least worst" solutions, and there are few of them.

[brimic]

All the money tied up in 401Ks won't amount to a hill of beans if the Fed continues its current monetary policy and congress keeps spending lik drunken sailors in a whorehouse. 0.6% of nothing is still nothing.

[Fly320s]

Uh, I forgot my wallet. You get this check, I'll get the next one.

[makattak]

Uh, I forgot my wallet. You get this check, I'll get the next one.

No problem. I've still got a couple real nickels. I should get about $35,000,000 back.

[brimic]

Uh, I forgot my wallet wheelbarrow. You get this check, I'll get the next one.

FIFY.

[longeyes]

Conversion to Treasuries is coming.  So is a "wealth tax."

Unless.

Unless someone says **** NO.

[Tallpine]

No worries, the press will just label them as right wing religious fanatics and gun nuts. Problem solved.

I'm not religious 

[makattak]

I'm not religious 

That won't stop them. They call McVeigh a "christian terrorist."

[Boomhauer]

Conversion to Treasuries is coming.  So is a "wealth tax."

Unless.

Unless someone says **** NO.

Right now most of America is hatin' on Big Wealth...

[brimic]

Most Americans couldn't tell you the difference between wealth and income as well...

[makattak]

Most Americans couldn't tell you the difference between wealth and income as well...

Or debt and deficit.

[roo_ster]

Megan McArdle has some good analysis on this topic:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/05/roth-iras-safety-in-numbers/238839/

...Don't get me wrong; I think that Congress is going to go after all of it.  But Congress doesn't have to do anything special to get money out of traditional IRAs; it just has to raise income taxes.  (401ks and traditional IRAs are taxed at ordinary income tax rates).  Roth IRAs, on the other hand, represent a sizeable pool of tax-free assets.  I also expect that at some point, Congress is going to at least attempt to claw back the tax deduction for municipal bonds.

It is of course true that tax-free retirement savings have a long history in the US.  But they did in Ireland, too, and Ireland is now proposing to tax the bejeesus out of them...

...0.6% doesn't sound like a lot, but it's a pretty substantial tax on savings: putting money away costs you half a percentage point of your principal every single year.  The document says it's only meant to be temporary.  But for countries in Ireland's fiscal shape, "temporary" taxes have a way of becoming permanent.

This is the sort of thing that desperate governments do when they're having trouble accessing capital markets.  It was easy to write off Argentina's seizure of private pension funds in 2008; to paraphrase PJ O'Rourke, if Latin American finance were a soap opera--and it is--Argentina would be the spendthrift crack-addicted younger brother that uptight, ultra-respectable Mexico fights desperately to save.

But Ireland is another thing entirely--a model of fiscal rectitude whose budget surpluses were a shining example to the rest of us, now reduced to pilfering its citizens "tax free" private pension funds...

...And I don't think it's that farfetched that we could end up in somewhat similar circumstances--not exactly the same, obviously, but close enough for discomfort...

As they say, to mash the link and read in full.

[MicroBalrog]

Except it is a tax not on principal, but on the contribution and interest. And it has not passed yet.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

And it has not passed yet.


buzz killer

[mtnbkr]

Except it is a tax not on principal, but on the contribution and interest. And it has not passed yet.

Since I'm already being taxed on my income and on a variety of other things, I would rather not add yet another tax to the list regardless of how benign it appears.

And I would rather not wait for it to be taxed.  It's harder to repeal laws than to block them to begin with.

I guess it's not a big deal to those who have nothing, but I'm not among that crowd.

Chris

[MicroBalrog]

And it has not passed yet. Even in Ireland.

You do not live in Ireland.

[Tallpine]

The biggest single tax on 401Ks and all other savings will be hyperinflation