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Author Topic: Gates has dim view of NATO  (Read 9606 times)

Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2011, 01:09:44 PM »
Quote from: MechAg94 on June 11, 2011, 01:06:59 PM
Our bases in Germany and many of the others allow us to project force around the world.  I'm not sure we could do what we are doing in the Middle East and Afghanistan without those European bases.
Also, the medical place in Germany (starts with an 'L'?) is vital for saving the lives of seriously wounded personnel who might not survive a trip all the way to the US.
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longeyes

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2011, 01:10:31 PM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog on June 11, 2011, 12:58:34 PM
I ain't even joking. It's a serious opinion of several academics that the routine consumption of caffeinated drinks helped spur the Industrial Revolution.

I didn't think you were, any more than I was joking about the rise of the Enlightenment and its close alliance with "stimulants."

Then there was our Revolution, fueled by rum, hard cidar, and, yeah, tea...
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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2011, 01:42:22 PM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog on June 11, 2011, 12:58:34 PM
I ain't even joking. It's a serious opinion of several academics that the routine consumption of caffeinated drinks helped spur the Industrial Revolution.

Given that caffeinated drinks largely replaced alcoholic drinks for many people that's hardly surprising.  The introduction of tea to England caused QE 1 to change her breakfast drink from ale to tea.  The reduction in alcohol intake was probably more responsible than the addition of caffeine.
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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2011, 12:48:25 AM »
Quote from: MechAg94 on June 11, 2011, 01:06:59 PM
Our bases in Germany and many of the others allow us to project force around the world.  I'm not sure we could do what we are doing in the Middle East and Afghanistan without those European bases.

Two points:

1.  Exactly.   Please can we stay out of the Middle East?   They hate us, we hate them.   Our being there enrages them (this I can understand) and makes them attack us.   Yes, I know I'm channeling someone.   

2. Do we need 90,000 troops to man these bases?   I think by bases you mean US controlled airstrips.
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SteveT

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2011, 12:51:14 AM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog on June 10, 2011, 11:11:54 PM
One would hope so.

Caffeine is the fuel of industrial civilization.

Do you speak a language besides English, MB?   I've never known anyone who uses "One" as a subject who didn't.

 :O
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makattak

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2011, 12:51:55 AM »
Quote from: sumpnz on June 11, 2011, 01:42:22 PM
Given that caffeinated drinks largely replaced alcoholic drinks for many people that's hardly surprising.  The introduction of tea to England caused QE 1 to change her breakfast drink from ale to tea.  The reduction in alcohol intake was probably more responsible than the addition of caffeine.

Most likely. Encouraged intake of water that had been purified (boiled) without knowledge of the reasons for that boiling. Previously alcohol was FAR better than drinking water, despite most of Europe being under some level of the influence of alcohol anytime they weren't asleep.  
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2011, 02:12:43 AM »
Quote from: SteveT on June 12, 2011, 12:51:14 AM
Do you speak a language besides English, MB?   I've never known anyone who uses "One" as a subject who didn't.

 :O

English is only my third language.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2011, 02:13:58 AM »
Quote from: makattak on June 12, 2011, 12:51:55 AM
Most likely. Encouraged intake of water that had been purified (boiled) without knowledge of the reasons for that boiling. Previously alcohol was FAR better than drinking water, despite most of Europe being under some level of the influence of alcohol anytime they weren't asleep.  

I think we can't discount its stimulant effects, too. Caffeine helped people to adjust to an industrial lifestyle ( which is more based on keeping specific hours, precise to the minute, than it is on vague things like "morning" or "noon").
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wmenorr67

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2011, 07:33:45 AM »
Back to the OT. I am not so opposed to supporting NATO as I am to supporting the UN. We should pull our money out of that organization and tell it to find another home. How fast would it fold?  Not like it ever enforces anything anymore anyways.
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Scout26

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2011, 11:01:59 PM »
It's not 90K soldiers in Europe, it's more like 55K and getting smaller all the time.  The "goal" is 28K. 

Right now we have the equivalent of a reinforced Divison (two Maneuver Brigades, One Airborne Brigade, One Artillery Brigade and one each MI, MP, Engineer and Aviation Brigades)

They are based mostly at Major Training Areas (Grafenwoehr and Baumholder) with Landstuhl/Ramstein/K-Town and Weisbaden being the next largest places.

We are down from over 800 installations in 112 Communities to now being just over 100 in 8 communities, having just recently closed up everything in Mannheim, Heidelberg, and Wuerzburg. 

At the height of the Cold War we had 4 Full Heavy Divisions (1st Armored, 3rd Armored, 3rd Infantry and 8th Infantry) of 3 maneuver brigades each plus an Artillery and Aviation Brigade each.  There were also 2 Forward Brigades  of one each from the 2nd Armored and 1st Infantry.  2 Armored Cavalry Regiments (2nd and 11th) which were "pocket divisions", and 2 each Artillery, Aviation, Engineer, MI, MP, and Signal Brigades along with an Air Defense Command (a Brigade plus of duck hunters).  Roughly 215K soldiers total.   

Europe does give us a forward base from which to have forces forward deployed and support operations, along with some places to train.  Since we are no longer defending them from the Russian hordes, USAREUR does serve to let everyone over there know not to screw with Uncle, nor try any of the crap that started War I and hopefully settled it to everyone's (well, at least our) satisfaction in War II.
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mtnbkr

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Re: Gates has dim view of NATO
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2011, 11:28:27 PM »
Quote from: SteveT on June 12, 2011, 12:51:14 AM
Do you speak a language besides English, MB?   I've never known anyone who uses "One" as a subject who didn't.

Now you do.  I use "one" as a subject, but only speak English...and not that fluently.

Chris
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