acting ATF director may resign

[gunsmith]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/06/20/us.fast.and.furious/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

the whole thing was a scheme to convince us that guns are flowing from USA gunstores to Mexican criminals so that obummer could have a reason to promote gun control, liberal media said that "machineguns from gunstores were going to Mexico" it was what was all over the news.

[longeyes]

Nothing to see here.  Move on.  Just a sneak attack on the Second Amendment by those at the highest levels of authority.

[RevDisk]

Nothing to see here.  Move on.  Just a sneak attack on the Second Amendment by those at the highest levels of authority.

Eh, I'd buy incompetence moreso than malice.  BATFE has gotten smacked around quite a bit in the last decade, deservedly so.  I'd like to see what they try after this.  The MSM has been trying to ignore it without much success.

[longeyes]

Not to worry.  There's that U.N. Small Arms Treaty that can just bypass all that pesky Constitutional stuff.  We're just about the last redoubt on earth.  Even the Swiss and the Finns have gone soft on gun rights, and the Anglosphere gave up years ago.

If you think "incompetence" is what causes powermongers to try to disarm the natives, well, something tells me there's a lot more incompetence on the way.

[RevDisk]

Not to worry.  There's that U.N. Small Arms Treaty that can just bypass all that pesky Constitutional stuff.  We're just about the last redoubt on earth.  Even the Swiss and the Finns have gone soft on gun rights, and the Anglosphere gave up years ago.

If you think "incompetence" is what causes powermongers to try to disarm the natives, well, something tells me there's a lot more incompetence on the way.

Treaties do not trump the Constitution. 

Paragraph 2 of Article VI:
This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

This was upheld in Reid v. Covert, 354 U.S. 1 (1957).

[Balog]

Trying to use a UN treaty to justify gun bans is one of the few surefire ways I can think of to incite widespread violent unrest. And I think even the poli-critters know it, and won't try it just for that reason.

[kgbsquirrel]

Paragraph 2 of Article VI:
This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

This was upheld in Reid v. Covert, 354 U.S. 1 (1957).

In the words of my drill instructor, Aaand halt! By my layman's reading of that section, it proposes that any federal law trumps all others, unless it is contrary to the constitution or a state law. Can I get one of the local APS landsharks to qualify that statement for me please?

[RevDisk]

Trying to use a UN treaty to justify gun bans is one of the few surefire ways I can think of to incite widespread violent unrest. And I think even the poli-critters know it, and won't try it just for that reason.

Yea, call me cynical, but I suspect it'd take gas chambers before most middle income, middle aged Americans would get off their duff.  Most widespread violence we have is usually kids being morons or moron adults that never mentally grew up.  I have no idea if it's true, but most cops tell me that roughly 0.1% of the population causes 80-90% of all crimes.  Most of the time, the cops know them by sight as they have such frequent contact. 

Flip side is, I don't think American law enforcement would know how to react to actual widespread violent unrest.  They have very little experience with it.  Their client base is mostly either morons or kids, and the metaphorical deck of legal cards is firmly biased in favor of the police.  Not saying this is good or bad, it just is.  The overwhelming majority of Americans are very timid, law abidding folks.  If this changed, I don't see them capable of changing/reacting appropriately to the changed customer base.  That situation would be more like traditional military peacekeeping operations than the current situation.

[longeyes]

I didn't say it was Constitutional and I didn't say it would be greeted with equanimity, but it still wouldn't surprise me if they tried it.  This is not about legality, it's about the changing rules of the culture.  This is not a President who operates on the basis of legality or broad American popularity.  Isn't that obvious by now?

[longeyes]

Trying to use a UN treaty to justify gun bans is one of the few surefire ways I can think of to incite widespread violent unrest. And I think even the poli-critters know it, and won't try it just for that reason.

A goodly number of the people in this country under 40 are at best disinterested parties in the war against guns.  They have other priorities.

Face it, in the Western world the trend is not encouraging. Who, 30, 40 years would have predicted that the U.K., Australia, and Canada and most of Europe would make gun ownership akin to a social disease--and that the people at large would go along with it?  I think it's unwise to be over-confident about the trend in this country.  Younger Americans have been conditioned to believe they are "citizens of the world."

[Balog]

There are enough redneck deer hunters who are stupid and apathetic now, but wouldn't stand for the UN making laws. I think that gun bans passed by fed.gov or state bodies would not cause issues. But the PR nightmare of the UN banning guns and the logistical nightmare of trying to enforce that (esp on a populace without formal registration) would have enough people sympathetic that the 0.1% would be emboldened to start hunting poli-critter.

[MicroBalrog]

Who, 30, 40 years would have predicted that the U.K., Australia, and Canada and most of Europe would make gun ownership akin to a social disease--and that the people at large would go along with it?

Canada is even now about to repeal its gun registration edict.

[MicroBalrog]

Here's a link.

[longeyes]

Canada is not gun-friendly, not by our standards.  Would that it were.

[Dave Workman]

‘Melson should go’ says Issa as pressure builds

   Kenneth Melson, acting director of the embattled Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives should step down.


http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/melson-should-go-says-issa-as-pressure-builds

[MechAg94]

IMO, the Director is not the only one who should go.  Every person in authority who approved this and allowed it to proceed from the local office up through the Director should be gone. 

[AZRedhawk44]

IMO, the Director is not the only one who should go.  Every person in authority who approved this and allowed it to proceed from the local office up through the Director should be gone. 

The Director and everyone down to the SAC that runs the PHX/Tucson ATF offices should be tried for Treason.  Yep, Treason.  If anything can tie Holder to it, he should also be put on trial.  Possibly even Obama.

The agents that assisted the SACs at the field offices and followed those orders should be fired.


I'm 100% in the camp of "ruin as many bureaucrat lives as possible" for this one.

This "Gunwalker" thing is the source of all the lies and FUD regarding the bullscat "gun show loophole" that has been pimped as the source of all the guns in Mexico.

Well, it turns out that the lay populace, who DON'T REGISTER GUNS AT ALL WHEN PERFORMING PRIVATE PARTY TRANSFERS AND DON'T USE NICS TO CHECK BACKGROUNDS, turn over fewer guns to international criminals, drug lords and terrorists, than our own Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (and Explosives and Bunny Slippers).

This was a pair of concerted attacks:

1. Giving arms to enemies of the United States of America, and enemies of an ally of the United States (Mexico);
2. A deliberate act of Sabotage of Liberty aimed against the American People, by Organs of our own Government, intended to incite Terror and manufacture new laws or regulations while stripping Americans of Rights.


Both of those are worthy of our enmity and wrath.  All responsible parties should pay FULLY for that, up to and including hanging or firing squad.

[AZRedhawk44]

I also think it would be poetic justice, if an ATF Director was sentenced to death by firing squad for Treason.

[longeyes]

+1

Attacks on the Bill of Rights of this kind, using covert tactics and under the aegis of government power, need to be treated with the utmost gravity.  They are deadly to the Republic, mortal assaults, and certainly worthy of the definition "high crimes."

[MechAg94]

Even if not treason, somewhere in the thousands of gun laws on the books, I am sure there are plenty that were violated in all this.

[Waitone]

Operation Fast and Furious = False Flag operation

[roo_ster]

I also think it would be poetic justice, if an ATF Director was sentenced to death by firing squad for Treason.

Only in a just world.

[brimic]

I also think it would be poetic justice, if an ATF Director was sentenced to death by firing squad for Treason.

It would be a start, but I'm pretty certain this boondoggle goes well above his pay grade.

[Ned Hamford]

In the words of my drill instructor, Aaand halt! By my layman's reading of that section, it proposes that any federal law trumps all others, unless it is contrary to the constitution or a state law. Can I get one of the local APS landsharks to qualify that statement for me please?

I do recall being taught the opposite in law school [treaties trump constitution], but it was with the caveat that it was 'merely' for economic concerns.  Which we all know are treated by politicians and the court with those most narrowing of limits.   The case ruled upon concerned a man in the US that shot a Canadian Goose despite a treaty with Canada not to bother those migrating birds.  Local law and custom had said that if it was on your property you could eat it. [Could be wrong, just how I remember being taught it... think I got a B- in that class]

The Reid v. Covert case dealt with a military tribunal, wife shot her military husband in the UK and there was a treaty saying outside the US military tribunals would cover things; court ruled despite the treaty, she was still required to get her full bill of rights protections and a good old fashion jury trial.  US Citizen is a US Citizen everywhere and entitled to all due rights, privileges, and protections.

My own, sadly cynical take on things, when has the law, or what is right and proper, ever stopped the power mad and power hungry from anything when they thought they could get away with it?  Current ongoing example, our 'ballistic action' with Libya.  Anyone remember our elected officials declaring war?

[Perd Hapley]

Paragraph 2 of Article VI:
This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

By my layman's reading of that section, it proposes that any federal law trumps all others, unless it is contrary to the constitution or a state law.

I wonder if you're taking that second use of "constitution" as a reference to the U.S. Constitution? It seems it must refer to the constitution of any state.

I do recall being taught the opposite in law school [treaties trump constitution], but it was with the caveat that it was 'merely' for economic concerns. 

This cannot be defensible. For starters, the above passage puts treaty on the same plane as "laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance [of the Constitution]," and we know that the Constitution trumps legislation. More significantly, it is the Constitution that creates the Senate and the Presidency, and grants them the power of creating treaties.