Interesting story about an American who worked at an Indian call center

[RevDisk]

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/05/indian-call-center-americanization

Best quote? 

"America is not all honey and roses the way they tell you," he informs me. "Truth is, 90 percent of the people there, you will find, they'll do the most stupid things, impulsive things. I know for a fact. At the same time, Americans are bighearted people, and the remaining 10 percent of them are smart. Bloody smart. That's why they rule the world."

My current department (Global Networking Operations Center) is being outsourced to Hyderabad.  Our third shift already was.  I was the last American, and spent a week solely with them.  They were a LOT better trained, and given a lot more training than I was, period.  My training was "Here's a couple docs, read them and ask questions when you have them."  I adjusted, and am now on shift by myself managing several thousand servers, no problems.

The week I was with the Indians?  Things got done quicker, more completely and much neater when I did it myself and handed them makework.  When I handed the FOUR Indians the majority of the work, first shift tore me a new one for the amount of just plain bad work.  Next night, did it all myself.  No complaints. 

I'm certainly not racist or protectionist.  I have no bloody idea why, but the Indians doing the outsourced work cannot do independent thought.  Hand them a script, step by step, and they can do it quite well and reasonably quickly.  Tell them to put round pegs in a round hole, triangular pegs in a triangular hole, and they won't know to put a square peg in a square hole.  I've seen it time and time again.  Whatever scripts they have or made, they do.  Anything outside of it, they close out the issue without resolution, transfer it inappropriately or let it sit until the Americans come on shift. 

Having a production server or router be down for six, eight hours is expensive.  Very expensive.  I can't imagine they're saving that much money from what I've seen thus far.  Couple months, the Americans are being phased out and it's all moving to Hyderabad.  The rest of the company, which is heavily international, is NOT pleased. 

[Regolith]

I'm certainly not racist or protectionist.  I have no bloody idea why, but the Indians doing the outsourced work cannot do independent thought.  Hand them a script, step by step, and they can do it quite well and reasonably quickly.  Tell them to put round pegs in a round hole, triangular pegs in a triangular hole, and they won't know to put a square peg in a square hole.  I've seen it time and time again.  Whatever scripts they have or made, they do.  Anything outside of it, they close out the issue without resolution, transfer it inappropriately or let it sit until the Americans come on shift. 

From what I understand, it's a by-product of their training/education.  It's cheaper and easier to teach them to do things by rote than to teach them how to figure things out for themselves. As a result, if you know exactly what and how you want something done, they'll get it done. But you still need someone to think up the "how" part of it.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

its cultural as well.  independent thought is valued here.  not so there is in fact sometimes dangerous

[AJ Dual]

its cultural as well.  independent thought is valued here.  not so there is in fact sometimes dangerous

This more than anything. Indians are incredibly culturally conservative by their own standards, and most anyone else's too. In actual practice, stricter than most Muslims, who seem to have a dozen-odd loopholes in "Allah's Will" that allow them to cut loose (Allah can't see me on Thursday, or when I'm over the horizon from Mecca or whatever, etc...), or just do so when no one else is looking.

It's not quite the same flavor as the Japanese/Korean/Chinese obedience-conformity. Working in the contracted IT sector that also had HUGE BPO operations (ACS out of Texas, they do entire state .govs practically...) we'd bring over Indian team members from Bangalore to cross-train etc.

Nice people. Very eager to please. These guys would have post-post graduate degrees in comp-sci and IT certs that would have someone here in the states making six figures, if not more, and on the fast track to being VP of IS/IT/MIS for a fourtune-500 company. Their resumes are terrifying... at first.

But while they are diligent, they lack any initiative, and squirm worse than snails dipped in salt if you try and put them on the spot to develop a process, or make some executive decision on their own.  And since these guys, actually rising even above level 1-2-3 call center/helpdesk/support are examples of India's best and brightest... I'm not completely sure how India has accomplished becoming a nuclear and space-capable state, much less functioned since the British gave them their independence.  

And that's where the mistakes, and Americans having to come in and troubleshoot all their work comes in, and eating up almost all the "savings" you get from Indian outsourcing. Net result, some H.S. Dropout dork 4Channer who drives the black and white VW Beetle for GeekSquad is often worth more than an Indian PhD in Computer Science and Information Theroy on simple initiative and independent problem solving.

The meanest thing I've ever done to one of them is tell them (innocently) about how McDonalds was in a bit of a scandal with vegetarians a few years back over how the fry oil had some beef broth in it as a flavoring. Poor Anjit... He seriously looked like he was going to cry.  

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

thats a great analysis

its quite the hoot observing how culture affects performance

[Tallpine]

its cultural as well.  independent thought is valued here.  not so there is in fact sometimes dangerous

Do they have those things that pop up out of the ground and slap them in the face ?

 

[AJ Dual]

Do they have those things that pop up out of the ground and slap them in the face ?

 

I'm pretty sure they do.

[Stetson]

I worked for ACS too and to get our own, internal, passwords reset we had to call India.
It SUCKED.  What would have taken 20 minutes here took 4 hrs+ when we had to call.

You can NOT throw them off the script.  EVER.  It will cause a meltdown of epic proportions if you tel them the solution and what to do.  I saw it at ACS, Agilent Technologies and MCI/Worldcom.

When I was with Agilent, there was a print server in Israel and no one could connect.  I knew there was no connectivity, I made the call to the onsite tech.  This was not the listed procedure but it had already been offline for 5 hours.  The techs in India lost it, emails were sent, calls made and, eventually, I got a 'just don't tell them what you did' meeting.  Oh, and the tech went to check the server, it was gone.  No idea what happened to it.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

not just an it thing.  my round eye uncle in new york sells equipment.  milling machines and such.  one piece had oil that cooled the cutting head and a pan to catch the oil.  the tech sent to set it up spent a couple hours trying to make a 1/2 inch plug work in a 3/4 inch hole and finally concluded that "it must not be the one that was actually shipped with machine" since that would be a sin

[zahc]

I worked with a lot of Indians in grad school. I remember a lot of times where they would ask me how I did a homework problem and I would tell them. And then they would ask "where I got it". They wanted to know where the technique I used 'came from'. Like where it was in the book, or what other book I found that had it, or what. The idea was that homework was a process of finding the map to follow and following it. If no such map was provided, they had to find one, or they got stuck and often blamed the teacher for being a bad teacher for not providing the map. When I told them I just you know, came up with the technique myself, I know they thought I was keeping something from them.

[HankB]

Here's what happens when they outsouce phone security to an Indian call center . . . (there's a commercial first    )

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/708062/outsourcing_security/

[roo_ster]

One of the better group project guys I worked with on my MBA set up call centers in India before getting his MBA.  Oh, the stories he would tell.

[Scout26]

Not just Indians.  When I was stationed in Germany many of our NATO partners had a "If it isn't specifically authorized, it's prohibited" mindset.  Whereas US Forces more often then not operated on a "If it isn't specifically prohibited, then screw it, let's do it." mindset.  The Brits were most like us.  But apparently WWII had beaten a lot of the operational savvy out the Germans.  The rest of our NATO partners we regarded as little more then cannon fodder, as they are so eloquently demonstrating in Afghanistan.

[HeroHog]

Back when I worked at Louisiana Tech University in the College of Engineering as a Scientific Instrument Tecnician (I took care of all the labs and equipment as well as our computers and network for the colleges of Civil and Chemical Engineering), I had to deal with these East Indian and Chinese national students. I had one that came to me needing something and I asked him if he needed the Red or the Blue one. He replied "Yes!" I repeated, "Do you need the Red one or the Blue one?" Again he replied "Yes!" I explained, "This is not a Yes or No question! There are two options and you have to tell me which one you need. Now, do you want the RED or the BLUE one?!?!" Him: "Yes!" Me: "Go away."

I got called before the department head for not helping the student who complained it was MY fault that he didn't get his work done. After I explained what happened I was chastized for not understanding the "cultural differences" between us and was advised to try harder to understand their needs next time. I replied that I can't help a GRADUATE STUDENT who can't answer a simple yes or no question and am more than happy to help when I am given enough to work with.

[HankB]

. . . I can't help a GRADUATE STUDENT who can't answer a simple yes or no question . . .

But it wasn't a simple yes or no question, it was a far more complex red or blue question. 

When I was in college, I used to work during registration (got paid a little, and signed up for all my classes the day before registration "officially" opened.) Had problems with some foreign students . . . including grad students . . . that were, basically, dumb as a post.

The worst were the FPSE - Fire Protection and Safety Engineering - majors. Particularly Algerians. 

[MechAg94]

On the plus side, I've worked with Indians over here who were sharp and competent at their jobs.  I guess they were the ones who rose to the top and actually succeeded in a private company. 

That said, I have heard similar stories from engineers who had to train locals in other countries on how to operate their systems.  The story about some Japanese operators was similar.  The guy said they had the operating manual memorized and could quote it from memory, but had little initiative or flexibility outside of that. 

[HeroHog]

As a student there I despised the fact that they allowed some of the foreign nationals (Pakanastani/Iran as I recall) to openly CHEAT as "their culture considers it poor form not to "help" their fellow countrymen on tests and projects." They didn't learn squat! They copied and cheated their way through college and were given a "bu" by the staff!

[AJ Dual]

Honestly, I think the disconnect is that the Enlightenment in Europe and it's being carried through Western Civ over the generations meant that people were encouraged to try, and still given credit for failures if the attempt was credible.

This spark is what ALL these people lack.

And in general, I note that Japan, China, india, Korea, all these nations started their 20th century rise after being exposed to the West, and even then, they largely prosper by copying, or incremental evolution of western products and ideas. They do so with ruthless efficiency, but little true innovation.

[HankB]

. . . The story about some Japanese operators was similar.  The guy said they had the operating manual memorized and could quote it from memory, but had little initiative or flexibility outside of that. 

On one of my trips to Japan to sort out problems with a vendor, I discovered that they'd made a mistake in their process (Hint: When you convert inch-ounces to grams-centimeters, you have to convert length as well as mass - they were off by a factor of 2.54.) and tactfully pointed this out; the company CEO chewed out their technical staff using what I understood was rather harsh language. BUT . . . we fixed the problem and they took me into their lab (normally off-limits to all outsiders, much less gaijin) so I could work with them for a while. After some initial reservations on their part, they became enthusiastic about fixing their process, and we ended up with a very good working relationship.

At the other end of the spectrum, when we called on another Japanese vendor (a division of a MAJOR camera maker) they arrogantly asserted that they were right, and all information to the contrary, no matter how overwhelming, was wrong.

We never did business with them again.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

At the other end of the spectrum, when we called on another Japanese vendor (a division of a MAJOR camera maker) they arrogantly asserted that they were right, and all information to the contrary, no matter how overwhelming, was wrong.



sadly that was more typical
good for you on cutting them loose.  THAT they understand

[AJ Dual]

On one of my trips to Japan to sort out problems with a vendor, I discovered that they'd made a mistake in their process (Hint: When you convert inch-ounces to grams-centimeters, you have to convert length as well as mass - they were off by a factor of 2.54.) and tactfully pointed this out; the company CEO chewed out their technical staff using what I understood was rather harsh language. BUT . . . we fixed the problem and they took me into their lab (normally off-limits to all outsiders, much less gaijin) so I could work with them for a while. After some initial reservations on their part, they became enthusiastic about fixing their process, and we ended up with a very good working relationship.

At the other end of the spectrum, when we called on another Japanese vendor (a division of a MAJOR camera maker) they arrogantly asserted that they were right, and all information to the contrary, no matter how overwhelming, was wrong.

We never did business with them again.

That's one of the other major differences between East and West.

Those cultures seem to believe in a sort of pre-existing amount of honor or status that you have, and it can only be lost through failure or embarrassment, and thus this honor must be conserved and protected. Americans start out as neutral, with neither honor nor dishonor, and status-neutral (to a degree) and then the honor and status is earned through results.

[lupinus]

Ah outsourcing.

We recently shipped all our systems support to India. A problem that used to take five minutes to resolve now takes hours. Some of them outright resolve themselves before you can even pound the problem into their head.

"But it's not supposed to work like that"
"No $^&% Sherlock that's why I put in a support ticket!"

[230RN]

"Do you want the red one or the blue one?"

"Yes" seems to be a perfectly logical response, regardless of which one you want.

Jes' sayin'.

[280plus]

No. I like neither red nor blue. What else do you have? 

[HeroHog]

I explained it was NOT a yes or no question and he had to choose one or the other. When he refused to respond other than to ask for the same thing and I again asked which of the 2 he needed, he again said "Yes!" and I had reached the limit of how much frustration I could stand from one person. I bade him leave until he could come back and converse in an intelligent, or at least somewhat reasonable manner.