Author Topic: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12  (Read 17901 times)

longeyes

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2011, 12:35:24 PM »
Welcome to Leechonomics, birthed by LBJ and now a mature but fatally ill adult.

The problem with our military expenditures is that they are driven by questionable strategies hatched by the same people who are resettling America, without public oversight, and pretending that there are no serious threats from Muslims and Mesoamericans.  "Invade the world, invite the world" still rules at Foggy Bottom.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2011, 01:00:29 PM »
Agreed.

And besides, as all good Libertarians and Conservatives know, the tears of starving/dying elderly, single mothers, and children are TASTY.

Come on DeSelby, come to the dark side. We have cookies. (and tears)

I promise not to duck.

mtnbkr

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2011, 01:37:37 PM »
Indeed.

The 2010 budget:

Note that DOD is 18.74% of the budget.

Does that 18.74% contain the portions of our defense spending that fall under other departments or under spending not tied to any one dept?  I know some of it falls under DOE. 

It wouldn't exceed SS, Welfare, Medicare and Medicaid with all of the hidden components, but to say it's "only 18.74%" is being ab it disingenuous.

Chris

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2011, 01:42:47 PM »
and since boehner hasn't lost and there is zero chance of a tea party speaker anytime soon its kinda wishful thinking to speculate on having one.  i'd be surprised to see one in my lifetime
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2011, 01:48:16 PM »
Does that 18.74% contain the portions of our defense spending that fall under other departments or under spending not tied to any one dept?  I know some of it falls under DOE. 

It wouldn't exceed SS, Welfare, Medicare and Medicaid with all of the hidden components, but to say it's "only 18.74%" is being ab it disingenuous.

Chris

 ;/

Hardly.

But, if you want to play it that way, go ahead and add the entirety of the DOE and NASA budgets to DOD.  You barely break 22% after that.

Then, add the entirety of the other nannyprograms to the SS/Medicare/Welfare crap.  DOL, DO(education), EPA, SSA, HHS, HUD, CNCS... and frankly, I'm gonna tack the 4.63% for the interest on the National Debt into the nannyprograms, too, since they represent the ENTIRE REASON we're in debt in the first place.  Takes you well above 65%.
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mtnbkr

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2011, 01:53:56 PM »
Actually, adding DoEnergy alone brings it up to about 35%.  That wasn't my point though.  In your haste to be offended, the point I was making zoomed right over your head.

Here it is in plain language:  We can't track the costs of any Dept because expenditures are spread around to keep folks like us from knowing exactly how much is spent.

You're free to go back to your rage now.

Chris

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2011, 02:01:59 PM »
Actually, adding DoEnergy alone brings it up to about 35%.  That wasn't my point though.  In your haste to be offended, the point I was making zoomed right over your head.

Here it is in plain language:  We can't track the costs of any Dept because expenditures are spread around to keep folks like us from knowing exactly how much is spent.

You're free to go back to your rage now.

Chris

Dood.  DOE is 2.05%.

Unless you can cite somewhere that shows DOE having a budget on parity with DOD?  The pie graph I displayed sure doesn't say that.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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makattak

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2011, 02:07:56 PM »
Dood.  DOE is 2.05%.

Unless you can cite somewhere that shows DOE having a budget on parity with DOD?  The pie graph I displayed sure doesn't say that.

Actually, your chart says DoEnergy is .74%

The 2.05% is Transportation.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2011, 02:10:53 PM »
before we start projecting a tea party speaker don't we need to elect a tea party candidate to congress?  at least one?  since there are currently exactly zero?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2011, 02:13:04 PM »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Balog

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2011, 02:31:42 PM »
Wow, the incredibly simplified chart on a "War Resistors" website, says that .mil spending is the majority of the budget? I'm shocked!
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birdman

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2011, 03:11:48 PM »
Currently, very little of the DoE budget is "military" or even military related.  While that wasn't true 20 or 30 years ago, it is now due to the DOE being much more involved in actual energy production, instead of simply the rapid release of energy over enemy targets.

And that war resistors chart is flawed on so many levels, but a few glaring ones:
1. It assumes that 80% of the interest payments on the national debt are military spending because it assumes that 80% of the debt is due to military spending.  This alone is enough to discredit it...money is fungible, you can't simply state that since if we didn't spend any on military (up until recently) we wouldn't have significant deficits, a more appropriate method would be to assume a fraction of the debt payments equal to the the total of the deficit of each year, multiplied by the fraction of spending that year that was military.
2. It counts only DISCRETIONARY spending, thereby omitting nearly 1.5 trillion/year (I presume on purpose to make the defense wedge bigger).  Now, libs will argue that because entitlements are codified spending by law, they can never be changed...however, to do so means they effectively guarantee receipt of funds paid, which is not only against SCOTUS precedent, but also means the deems favorite "budget balancing" method of raiding the SS and FICA "trust funds" (note, there really is no such thing, SS and FICA revenues enter the general fund just like normal taxes, any revenues over what is required for outlays of those programs are kept in the general fund, and the treasury records it as an intergovernmental transfer or IOU to those programs...this is how Clinton balanced the budget.

Right now, by any accounting method, even assuming a correct portion of the interest payment, and all non DOD defense spending is included, the number is still shy of 25%.  (btw, using that method, to be honest, the intergovernmental transfers should also be included and their impact on the interest payments added, in proportion to their fraction of the total of publicly held and inter government debt, which makes their pie even bigger).

My favorite argument about entitlements is how pols say any future reduction in their planned distributions is horrifying, and until their "trust funds" are exhausted, they are "in the black" and don't add to the deficit, yet their unfunded liabilities are not included in the balance sheet.  Our government finances are fundamentally flawed on this level, in any negotiation, we use accrual accounting ("blah blah will save X over 10 years"), yet when talking about debts, we use cash accounting (unfunded liabilities are not current payables, thus zero impact)...if a business did this, they ironically would be charged with a crime.  A proper method of accounting is to use the current law as the payables, and adjust to current spending based on a net present value formula.  Of course, they won't do this because in effect, it would mean being able to ensure you can pay for things in the future when you promise them today (like a business), AND it would make the current debt even more horrifying (nearly doubling if NPV is used), and make the effective deficit almost triple (since we would have to have the revenues now to address the future shortfalls)

mtnbkr

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2011, 05:17:14 PM »
Dood.  DOE is 2.05%.

Unless you can cite somewhere that shows DOE having a budget on parity with DOD?  The pie graph I displayed sure doesn't say that.

On my monitor, the different sections using same or similar colors look the same.  I had misread and thought DOEnergy was green, but it turns out it's red(ish).  Either way, I can't tell which slice is which without assuming things. 

The point still stands though, the *stated* size of the DOD budget leaves out items that were shifted out of DOD and into other departments back decades ago in order to hide the size of the "military" budget.

Chris

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2011, 05:44:07 PM »
On my monitor, the different sections using same or similar colors look the same.  I had misread and thought DOEnergy was green, but it turns out it's red(ish).  Either way, I can't tell which slice is which without assuming things. 

The point still stands though, the *stated* size of the DOD budget leaves out items that were shifted out of DOD and into other departments back decades ago in order to hide the size of the "military" budget.

Chris

The colors on the right correspond in linear order to a clockwise reading of the graph.
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Balog

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2011, 06:11:04 PM »
The colors on the right correspond in linear order to a clockwise reading of the graph.

I'd wondered how anyone could tell those shadings apart. Starting from noon I assume?
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2011, 06:13:15 PM »
Correct.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

De Selby

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2011, 07:31:23 PM »
Well, only 20 percent of the budget!?  How will we save any money cutting that!?
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Balog

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2011, 07:49:14 PM »
Well, only 20 percent of the budget!?  How will we save any money cutting that!?

Even assuming we could cut a significant fraction of that without seriously compromising ourselves, please explain why the Constitutionally established and necessary money spent on .mil should be cut rather than entitlement programs? Keeping in mind that the attacks on frredopm are not afaik funded by DoD spending. Am I right in this folks? Is TSA etc funded under DoD?
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2011, 08:05:55 PM »
Even assuming we could cut a significant fraction of that without seriously compromising ourselves, please explain why the Constitutionally established and necessary money spent on .mil should be cut rather than entitlement programs? Keeping in mind that the attacks on frredopm are not afaik funded by DoD spending. Am I right in this folks? Is TSA etc funded under DoD?

Either DHS or DOT. Forget which.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2011, 08:25:51 PM »
In other words, it's better for the government to spend money on a "war on terror" that actively does harm to Americans privacy rights, and arms Obama with the most fearsome surveillance apparatus ever created, but spending that same money on welfare handouts it's just wrong.

I'd rather let that money be rorted by bums, who will at least do no more than drive past me with fancy wheels.  That's a lot less harmful to my liberty than a decade of warfare.

The problem with welfare is not the money to the bums.

Had the entire American government budget been distributed to homeless dudes who would continue to spend it on meth and hookers, it would do less damage to liberty than the welfare state today .

But you are smart enough to know that the military has little to do with things like TSA/BATFE/FBI. I doubt your liberty has ever been invaded by a Marine, a Navy sailor or an airman. You could cut the military by half and it would not make you an inch freer, and you know that.

The problem with welfare are the following things:

1. People who buy/do X increase welfare and state-funded healthcare costs. Since I'm now paying for their health care it increases my incentive to want to ban things that might be 'harmful' to them.

2. Welfare funding automatically equates also funding for what the progressives sometimes term 'positive welfare' - compulsory education, intervention in people's families through an ever-expanding CPS apparatus, etc.

3. Welfare funding goes not merely to homeless people and the sick - which would have been tolerable, if not constitutionally permissible - but to a myriad bureaucrats.

To put this into perspective, BATFE consists of 4,559 employees costing $1.5 billion dollars. The United States Marine Corps has a budget of $34 billion, and is comprised of 203,000 Marines.

Which of them is a bigger threat to an American's liberty?
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Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2011, 08:58:45 PM »
IIRC, the welfare budget also counts the pensions to .gov workers, including retired .mil folk.

birdman

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2011, 09:09:50 PM »
On my monitor, the different sections using same or similar colors look the same.  I had misread and thought DOEnergy was green, but it turns out it's red(ish).  Either way, I can't tell which slice is which without assuming things. 

The point still stands though, the *stated* size of the DOD budget leaves out items that were shifted out of DOD and into other departments back decades ago in order to hide the size of the "military" budget.

Chris

Not really...with the exception of the certain coast guard activities.
Like I said, the military fraction of DOE has been decreasing, AND the amount of military stuff the DOE does has been decreasing.
While some of DOD has been shifted to CBP and DHS (parts of the coast guard funding I believe, which used to have some DOD funding in it), there really isn't much else (of any major significance that would change the chart) that is military related that is in other areas (NSF, NASA, maybe a little).  Having been exposed to the military budget process inside and out, it is VERY difficult to get non DOD funds to do anything military related, the authorization/appropriation bills are extremely detailed and limiting.  The whole "bury DOD funds in other areas to hide the size of the military budget" is really a myth, and has been for decades (and even before then, it was mainly DOE nuclear weapons stuff).  In fact, due to a variety of legislation both semi-recent and very old, it is in many cases illegal to do military stuff with domestic funds--it's the power of the purse implementation/restriction of the Posse Comitatus Act.

Also, the welfare budget does not cover military health care or retirement benefits, those are a DOD line item, and part of it's budget. 

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2011, 09:19:43 PM »
bury DOD funds in other areas to hide the size of the military budget"

where did they hide the money for that building out near dulles?  the one thats so secure?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2011, 09:30:09 PM »
IIRC, the welfare budget also counts the pensions to .gov workers, including retired .mil folk.

Retired and disabled .mil pensions, medical funding, et al. falls under the Department of Veteran's Affairs which accounts for  1.48% of the 2010 budget. ETA: Also the education benefits for non-disabled/retired veterans etc.

I'm curious what the view is with regards to VA retirement and disability pensions as it compares to the rest of the welfare spending by big.gov? As I've stated to other members of this forum in private conversations, I am personally quite conflicted between my stance on state welfare handouts and my own stipend I receive from the VA.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 09:33:38 PM by kgbsquirrel »

MechAg94

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Re: Boehner loses: time for a TEA party Speaker in '12
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2011, 10:00:59 PM »
Retired and disabled .mil pensions, medical funding, et al. falls under the Department of Veteran's Affairs which accounts for  1.48% of the 2010 budget. ETA: Also the education benefits for non-disabled/retired veterans etc.

I'm curious what the view is with regards to VA retirement and disability pensions as it compares to the rest of the welfare spending by big.gov? As I've stated to other members of this forum in private conversations, I am personally quite conflicted between my stance on state welfare handouts and my own stipend I receive from the VA.
What is the comparison between benefits earned/given to veterans and govt mandated charity to poor people and cheats?  I don't see the connection.
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