Author Topic: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement  (Read 16335 times)

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2011, 03:38:51 PM »
yeah, if it's going to be a gradual upgrade as weapons are removed from service , I am fine with it. but if they are planning on just willy nilly replacing a bunch of perfectly good weapons, then I'm not

Hell, I'm just happy they aren't still nattering on about that block of wood with the built in 25mm launcher (was that the OICW? I lose track of the acronyms). I guess that's why I was enthusiastic about this, because it actually seems mildly practical and addresses a real issue unlike all the other BS weapons projects .mil seems to love wasting money on.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 03:49:14 PM by Balog »
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,734
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2011, 03:48:26 PM »
Meanwhile, marines are going a different direction  http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2011/06/marine-m27-infantry-automatic-rifle-062911w/
Isn't that just basically a piston-driven M16 derivative?
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2011, 03:51:44 PM »
Isn't that just basically a piston-driven M16 derivative?

Yup. It's basically a FA piston driven M16. So long cover fire.  ;/
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2011, 04:09:35 PM »
Yup. It's basically a FA piston driven M16. So long cover fire.  ;/

That switches to an open-bolt operation when flipped to FA. But yeah, I was expecting something like the shrike with a nice compact belt feed option. Also doesn't look like you can fast change barrels. Pointless in the cover fire role, they would have been better going back to the Stoner-63 and updating it to accept M27 links. 13 pounds fully loaded with a 200 round belt. Only a 50 year old design.  :P

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2011, 04:11:05 PM »
That switches to an open-bolt operation when flipped to FA. But yeah, I was expecting something like the shrike with a nice compact belt feed option. Also doesn't look like you can fast change barrels. Pointless in the cover fire role, they would have been better going back to the Stoner-63 and updating it to accept M27 links. 13 pounds fully loaded with a 200 round belt. Only a 50 year old design.  :P

Yeah, fixed barrel, uses 30 rnd mags, and (I assume based on the sometimes open bolt sometimes closed mechanism) more complicated. Pretty much a fail in every way. /facepalm
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,734
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2011, 04:19:30 PM »
. . . Also doesn't look like you can fast change barrels.  . . .
Maybe they're anticipating a barrel upgrade soon:  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/03/cobalt_gun_barrels/
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2011, 06:16:45 PM »
Maybe they're anticipating a barrel upgrade soon:  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/03/cobalt_gun_barrels/

Very neat, thanks for the read.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2011, 06:19:15 PM »
Are they also going to make the gas tube and such out of that cobalt wunder steel?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2011, 09:35:35 PM »
That IAR looks like a cross between a DMR and a SAW, function-wise.

Yeah, the SAW & ammo is heavier than an M4/16, but it is lighter than a M60 or M240, the other options for sustained auto fire.

Don't get me started on the armor deal.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2011, 03:40:09 AM »
How about just copying the MG3?  It already shoots 7.62x51 NATO or re-chamber it to shoot linked 5.56, but for the love of all that is scared don't try to "improve it" and end up with another abomination like the M60 turned out to be from screwing around with the design of the MG34 and MG42.  :facepalm:
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Phantom Warrior

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2011, 12:23:18 PM »
And just because it's lighter doesn't mean it's better...

Look at how many guys are choosing to carry the heavy M-14 instead of the much lighter M-4...

How many is that?  I sure haven't seen many around here.  Or last time.

sanglant

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,475
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2011, 07:21:37 PM »
yeah, if it's going to be a gradual upgrade as weapons are removed from service , I am fine with it. but if they are planning on just willy nilly replacing a bunch of perfectly good weapons, then I'm not

i fully support the army in replacing these weapon systems, the obsolete units should be sold to US citizens(through the CMP) at fair prices. ;)

Regolith

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,171
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2011, 08:03:26 PM »
i fully support the army in replacing these weapon systems, the obsolete units should be sold to US citizens(through the CMP) at fair prices. ;)

This.  :cool:

It'd be a hell of a lot more cost effective to introduce new gear if the military could sell its older gear to civilians at cost (hell, they could charge what they're paying for the replacements, and people would probably still buy them, at least in this specific instance). 

Too bad they closed down the machine gun registry.  =(
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2011, 12:44:17 PM »
The SAW is a belt fed crew served light machinegun designed for, you know, infantry doctrine based on the squad as the basic unit of maneuver.

Marine infantry doctrine has the fire team as the base unit of maneuver. the position in the fire team is "automatic Rifleman".  The SAW was a bad substitute for a real AR, which we've lacked since the BAR.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 01:59:34 PM by Matthew Carberry »
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,417
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2011, 01:13:19 PM »
How many is that?  I sure haven't seen many around here.  Or last time.

Don't know.  Just know I've got a few buddies still serving who say that to me all the time, and claim they aren't the only ones.  In Afghanistan, and they say they want the extended range of the 7.62.  Stay safe, and come home that way.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2011, 01:40:49 PM »
Don't know.  Just know I've got a few buddies still serving who say that to me all the time, and claim they aren't the only ones.  In Afghanistan, and they say they want the extended range of the 7.62.  Stay safe, and come home that way.

Dunno what unit your buddies are with, but no one I've ever met in a normal infantry unit had any choice whatsoever in what they carried.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

AJ Dual

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,162
  • Shoe Ballistics Inc.
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2011, 01:56:03 PM »
I KNOW!

I'm going to load 8 stacked .223 projectiles in hot loaded 12ga high-brass shotshells. (four pointed up, four rotated 90 degrees, points down..) Then, with my Saiga and 20 round drums, there'll be eight 5.56 projos flying for every trigger pull, and that means 320 projos per drum magazine!

Problem solved!
I promise not to duck.

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2011, 05:14:24 PM »
This.  :cool:

It'd be a hell of a lot more cost effective to introduce new gear if the military could sell its older gear to civilians at cost (hell, they could charge what they're paying for the replacements, and people would probably still buy them, at least in this specific instance). 

Too bad they closed down the machine gun registry.  =(

IIRC, a new M16A2 or M4A1 cost the taxpayers $400-$500 back in 1999 or so.  (I do not recall what a SAW cost.)  I bet they could sell every M16/4 they wanted to replace at that price point through CMP.  Heck, even if they only got half that through a distributor, that would cushion the blow of new small arms.


The SAW is a belt fed crew served light machinegun designed for, you know, infantry doctrine based on the squad as the basic unit of maneuver.

Marine infantry doctrine has the fire team as the base unit of maneuver. the position in the fire team is "automatic Rifleman".  The SAW was a bad substitute for a real AR, which we've lacked since the BAR.

Only with a tripod.  Used with a bipod, one man could manage it just fine, especially with the truncated bbl, collapsible stock, and 100 round cartridge bag.

FTR, I initially did not like the SAW.  But, it grew on me over time.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2011, 06:28:01 PM »
roo_ster,

That's still modifying an inappropriate weapon to try to make it fit the doctrine rather than simply getting the proper weapon.  I would remind everyone of how much the ability of the SAW to use M16 mags was touted, that was part of the "sell" of it being an acceptable substitute for a real AR; ammo, and ammo delivery system, commonality with the rifle.  Needless to say the ROF of the belt-fed made the mag feed idea useless in practice, but by that time it had been adopted and the failure was excused.

The SAW in any configuration is simply too heavy for the role.  The SAW gunner is always playing catch-up to the rest of the team. Belt-feed is not designed for rapid movement in the assault (belts twist, catch, get fouled and break too easily) and can't be reloaded on the run.  The SAW can't be effectively fired from the shoulder, certainly not better than a true Automatic Rifle.  One man can't effectively change barrels on the move so that ability is so much eyewash, not that "suppressing fire" by the fire team has any role in a doctrinal Marine infantry assault so barrel overheating shouldn't be an issue in the first place.

"Suppressing fire" is BS.  Marine infantry doctrine is based on effective aimed fire.  The Automatic Rifle is designed to gain temporary fire superiority to allow for fire team movement to where effective aimed fire can be applied to the target.

"To locate, close with, and destroy the enemy through fire and maneuver; and to repel the enemies assault through fire and close combat."  Chewing up walls a belt at a time is not what fire team tactics are about.

The SAW has a place, like all belt-fed crew serves, in the defense or in overwatch.  It is also, per it's name "squad automatic weapon" a perfect fit for pre-WWII German squad-based MG infantry tactics.  What it isn't, and can't be, is an Automatic Rifle as required to properly utilize the Marine infantry fire team in the assault. 

Pursuant to that the SAWs will be going back where they belong, to Weapons Company to be sent out in detachments as required by the company and platoon commanders and for establishing fixed defenses for patrol bases and the like.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
AR Dreams vas AR Reality
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2011, 09:54:37 PM »
MC:

Automatic Rifle
I think folks have an overly optimistic view of the BAR in particular and the "true automatic rifle" concept in general. 

In short:
The automatic rifle is a concept that never worked as advertised (or named), even with purpose-built "automatic rifles."

First off, the BAR was tried in WWI as a full-up automatic rifle without bipod.  It was a true "automatic rifle."  Not a LMG, not a crew served weapon with the tripod left home, not an assault rifle firing on FA or burst, but an actual automatic rifle.  Designed by Browning, even.

That didn't last long, as it was too heavy to be used as a automatic rifle and soon was produced with a bipod and the BAR was then a SAW(0) in most every function, albeit with a box mag instead of a belt-feed.  Thing is, most any automatic rifle that has a sustained rate of fire worth a darn will be too HEAVY to use as a rifle, because it takes bbl mass (steel) to manage the heat.

My father, though his hernia kept him out of the service, was of an age to enlist into Army or USMC units that pre-dated the M60 and still had BARs.  His best friend did manage to enlist and since he was a corn-fed 6'4" heavily built Iowa farm boy, he was issued the BAR in his infantry unit.  The most senior BAR man almost always had the oldest BAR with the highest round count.  Reason why, was that the older BARs actions were loose & worn enough that one could stroke the trigger on full-auto quickly/gently enough to actually just send one round down range per squeeze.  The newer ones, not so much.  The reason that was valued was because the BAR couldn't hit a point target for squat on FA(2).  The preferred technique on the FA BAR range was rapid semi-auto fire. 

The previously-linked USMC IAR is about the closest thing to an automatic rifle that can actually be used as an automatic rifle that I have seen:
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2011/06/marine-m27-infantry-automatic-rifle-062911w/


USMC Focus
Every time I have spoken with USMC doctrine, training, and acquisition folk, the common theme is "The squad as a system."(1)  When I have interviewed actual USMC infantrymen, the only times they broke down into non-mutually-supporting fire teams was for patrols when their AO was quiet, as in "No shots fired during the 7 month deployment" quiet.  Otherwise, it was squad-sized patrols or greater.  Same with all the doctrine materials.

Same, in application, as the Army units I interviewed.  I think that there is too much made of the different Army/USMC light infantry doctrine at the squad & team levels.  The USMC, with 3 teams per infantry squad, just has more options & capability, inside the particular squad, due to the extra fire team in the squad.  This capability difference melts away when either branch's infantry task organizes.

FTR, I prefer the idea of 3 teams/squad better.  But, I also like pushing independent operation capability down in the organization as far as practical, and the extra fire team allows more independent squad operation possibilities.  I also liked my unit's doling out MMGs/GPMGs like candy.  Aimed rifle fire = good.  Aimed rifle fire + lotsa M240B = better. 









(0) The M249 my unit used was ~8lbs lighter than the BAR and had a detachable bipod.  The original M249 and the BAR with bipod were with 16 ounces of each other.  If the M249 was too heavy to use as an automatic rifle, so was the only automatic rifle ever deployed by the US military (the BAR). Loaded, the 100 round bag did weigh ~14oz vs the BAR 20 round mag's ~7oz.  I suggest that our SAW was a better automatic rifle than the BAR.


(1) The Army has a similar catch phrase, "The soldier as a system."  If one takes their different focuses seriously, it has implications for their acquisitions.


(2) Oddly, BAR-men still wanted to hit what they were aiming at, even when their "superiors" directed them to use FA fire.


Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2011, 10:10:29 PM »
I'm not saying the BAR was a godsend, but it actually fit the concept.  The issue there was, as the problem with the M14 in the role, the full power cartridge lost controllability. The M16 version lacked a decent ammo feed system and overheated.  I've got 20 years of reading the Gazette and a yearly article was a Gunner (CWO4) or group thereof bemoaning the lack of a real AR that would let the Marines actually move aggressively.

I apparently didn't describe doctrine correctly, you don't operate as a fire team, you pperate as a squad; you maneuver (fight) as fire teams, not as one big bunch or some amorphous split.  There's no "static base of fire around the MG which allows the rifles to move who then provide a base of fire for the MG to move" which is out of stormtrooper tactics from late WWI.  Instead, as I was taught at SOI and later at the Sgt's Course and utilized in all the training I ever participated in or conducted, a dynamic, constant maneuvering for advantage by the teams fluidly shifting responsibility for fire superiority, again, not constant FA "suppression", to enable the less heavily engaged teams to move agressively to put rounds on target, not just popping rounds to keep heads down. 

Anyway, belt feeds are not made for the assault, the belt is too vulnerable and the action too unwieldy compared to a rifle.  Their sole advantage, sustained automatic fire, is not necessary most of the time, as your own comment points out.

"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2011, 02:29:20 AM »
Correct, Belt feds are covering, suppressing and supporting fire.

I'll have to take the time and explain MP Doctrine at the Platoon, Squad and Team level.

MP's Operate in three man teams - One HMMWV, an M60/M240 (Gunner) , a M16 (Driver/ass't Gunner) and an M16/203(Team Leader or Squad Leader) with both vehicle mounted and dismount radios.

Three teams make a squad, three squads make a platoon.  Nine teams total plus a PSG (with driver & medic)

That gave me as a PL:
10 Machine guns (Medic carried "Medical Insurance" ;))
10 Grenade Launchers
20 FA (or burst capable) Rifles
10 LAW's /AT-4's
plus a radio and every MP is taught to call for fire. (and in the Division's Maneuver Brigade we generally got it most ricky-tick, when I was in a Corps Support MP CO, there was one FA Battalion OPCON to each MP BDE.)

That's one hell of a lot of firepower.

You want to take an Objective?  With 10 Machine guns I can lay down a damn near continuous base of fire and then some, and that leaves me 20 troops to maneuver with. (PSG is in charge of the MG's)


Defend a position?  I've got the defensive firepower with an FPL that stop could anything short of a reinforced Guards Tank Battalion.   =D

The key was training my troops to dismount one "K" or one terrain feature away and move to a position to observe first then report what they saw.      


That's why the windshield of my HMMWV read:
"Find The Bastards, Then Pile It On."

 =D
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2011, 09:45:23 AM »
The key was training my troops to dismount one "K" or one terrain feature away and move to a position to observe first then report what they saw.      

So you guys functioned a bit like modern dragoons?*


*'Twas first a deck hand then an intel weenie when I was in, hence the likely-dumb questions.

"Find The Bastards, Then Pile It On."

 =D

I like that.  :lol:

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,417
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2011, 09:54:08 AM »
Dunno what unit your buddies are with, but no one I've ever met in a normal infantry unit had any choice whatsoever in what they carried.

You're right.  My buddies have no choice, which is why they are complaining to me about wanting an M-14.  They love the M-4 for CQB, but long for the 7.62 for the wide open spaces.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2011, 10:47:04 AM »
You're right.  My buddies have no choice, which is why they are complaining to me about wanting an M-14.  They love the M-4 for CQB, but long for the 7.62 for the wide open spaces.

Ahhh, yeah that makes sense. I very much understand bitching about wanting a different weapon (Lord knows I did enough of that) it was the actually getting part I was like  :O about.  :lol:
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.