Author Topic: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement  (Read 16338 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2011, 12:08:17 PM »
Spare barrels?

SPARE BARRELS?

Ha!



Here is a GPMG light enough to use as a SAW, with a barrel longevity of 20,000-30,000 rounds.

Spare barrels? AHAHAHA.
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Balog

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2011, 12:15:37 PM »
Spare barrels?

SPARE BARRELS?

Ha!



Here is a GPMG light enough to use as a SAW, with a barrel longevity of 20,000-30,000 rounds.

Spare barrels? AHAHAHA.

20-30k... continuous? I doubt it. Nice looking gun though.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2011, 12:45:44 PM »
At least so do they claim. The fact remains it obviates the need for carrying spare barrels.

You may imagine how much this is loved by Russian infantry.
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Balog

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2011, 12:50:07 PM »
Pardon my skepticism over Russian military claims. Be neat if it was true however. :)
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2011, 12:53:28 PM »
Pardon my skepticism over Russian military claims. Be neat if it was true however. :)

Even if it is less than 20,000 rounds, it's quite likely far more than what one can reasonably expect to shoot,  and larger than the amount of ammo a machinegunner carries. This shouldn't be surprising since GPMGs that can fire obscene amounts of ammo between barrel changes also exist in the US. It's not an outright impossible idea that such a gun could exist elsewhere.

We also know how the Pecheneg accomplishes this - the mechanism isn't classified.

Here is a US machinegun firing 1600 rounds in one long burst.
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Balog

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2011, 01:00:17 PM »
But what damage is done to the barrel after a long string of continuous? And what happens when it isn't all at once, but the barrel is not allowed to cool off between? And those are actual not rhetorical questions.
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roo_ster

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2011, 02:18:37 PM »
I'm not saying the BAR was a godsend, but it actually fit the concept.  The issue there was, as the problem with the M14 in the role, the full power cartridge lost controllability. The M16 version lacked a decent ammo feed system and overheated.  I've got 20 years of reading the Gazette and a yearly article was a Gunner (CWO4) or group thereof bemoaning the lack of a real AR that would let the Marines actually move aggressively.

Will we ever find a true Scotsman!

I apparently didn't describe doctrine correctly, you don't operate as a fire team, you pperate as a squad; you maneuver (fight) as fire teams, not as one big bunch or some amorphous split.  There's no "static base of fire around the MG which allows the rifles to move who then provide a base of fire for the MG to move" which is out of stormtrooper tactics from late WWI.  Instead, as I was taught at SOI and later at the Sgt's Course and utilized in all the training I ever participated in or conducted, a dynamic, constant maneuvering for advantage by the teams fluidly shifting responsibility for fire superiority, again, not constant FA "suppression", to enable the less heavily engaged teams to move agressively to put rounds on target, not just popping rounds to keep heads down. 

[Despite going Army, I had to learn and implement USMC rifle squad tactics for some work projects, so I have some familiarity.]

Pretty much the same for US Army light infantry squads, but with more options.  Of course, it is a bit more complex when the whole platoon's resources are figured into the mix.

You want to read about some truly funky infantry tactics, read, "The Bear Went Over The Mountain" about the USSR's tactics in their Afghan war (NOT the children's book).  Left me with much head scratching like, "And they thought THAT would be effective?"

Anyway, belt feeds are not made for the assault, the belt is too vulnerable and the action too unwieldy compared to a rifle.  Their sole advantage, sustained automatic fire, is not necessary most of the time, as your own comment points out.

Yep, belt feds are not ideal for maneuvering rifle squads. 

(I would point out that the 100 round bag we used in place of the 200 round drum was a big improvement for maneuver, both as to mass and vulnerability.)

Also, there is one teensy problem with dismissing the M249 in the infantry squad or team:
All data I have seen shows the SAW is the most lethal weapon in the infantry squad, both on offense and defense.  From Army and USMC sources.

That is despite the M249's real flaws as you have described them. 

I guess my question for the USMC is:
The M249 has a known/proved utility and lethality that doesn't completely mesh with USMC preferred theoretical doctrine and they are willing to throw it over for equipment that more closely approaches their theoretical doctrine without appreciating why the M249's is presently the most effective arm in the rifle squad.  Especially given that a "true scotsman" "true automatic rifle" has not ever been deployed.

I can understand hewing closely to religious doctrine.  Where is the data demonstrating the effectiveness of trinitarianism vs arianism?  But, hewing closely to military doctrine in the face of new developments or proved effectiveness smacks of doctrine for doctrine's sake or mere contrarianism ("We are NOT the US Army, thanks!")

Perhaps that is why they are keeping the SAW accessible, so as to hedge their bet.  Worst case scenario, they have a fine high(er) sustained ROF DMR-type rifle for the rifleman to tote as the automatic rifleman picks up the M249 again.


That gave me as a PL:
10 Machine guns (Medic carried "Medical Insurance" ;))

10 MGs in a ~infantry/scout platoon.   And I though MY unit liked MGs a-go-go at the platoon level.

So you guys functioned a bit like modern dragoons?*

Sounds like it.  But, most mechanized light cavalry or infantry recon units in the Army since WWII have been of this flavor.  I think the MP's have ripped many pages from the recon/cav playbook, which is a fine place to start. 

One of the senior CONOPS guys at my company guys seems to try to turn every organization into a modified cavalry unit: heavy on the firepower & crew-served weapons with some sort of motorized component.  I'm the guy who interjects, "You need more infantry.  You gonna drive that <vehicle> into the <buildings/forest/paddies/mountainside>?"


there was one FA Battalion OPCON to each MP BDE.)

[borat]Very nice![/borat]



Spare barrels?

SPARE BARRELS?

Ha!



Here is a GPMG light enough to use as a SAW, with a barrel longevity of 20,000-30,000 rounds.

Spare barrels? AHAHAHA.

Yes, that truly is a squad automatic weapon.  No mistaking it for an automatic rifle.


The barrel is somewhat heavier than that of the PKM, and has radial cooling ribs. This is enclosed in a steel jacket, which runs up to the muzzle to provide forced air cooling a-la Lewis machine gun of the World War I era. Cooling air enters the jacket through oval windows at the rear of the jacket, and exits at the muzzle.

Forced air cooling.  Sweet.

Quote
The manufacturer says that the Pecheneg can fire 600 rounds in continuous sustained fire without any danger to the barrel.

Rate of fire  ...............................................650 rds/min
Effective rate of fire   ..............................250 rds/min

Sustained/effective ROF of 250 rounds/min without bbl changes is outstanding.


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roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2011, 02:48:31 PM »
Quote
You want to read about some truly funky infantry tactics, read, "The Bear Went Over The Mountain" about the USSR's tactics in their Afghan war (NOT the children's book).  Left me with much head scratching like, "And they thought THAT would be effective?"

I've read - in Russian sources - that one of the big failures of the Soviet Army was attempting to re-apply textbook squad tactics - intended for use in a large-scale, combined arms battle on flat/hilly terrain - to the Afghan mountains. Is that true?
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roo_ster

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2011, 03:29:30 PM »
I've read - in Russian sources - that one of the big failures of the Soviet Army was attempting to re-apply textbook squad tactics - intended for use in a large-scale, combined arms battle on flat/hilly terrain - to the Afghan mountains. Is that true?

Partly.  We think the US Army was wedded to fighting the Fulda gap, but the USSR was even more so, but expected to use nukes to soften us up form the start.  They had the resources to do the job, but could never put them together to make it happen.  We give our military a hard time for taking too long to adapt, but relative to most militaries, we adapt right quick(1)


(1) Still to slow, IMO.
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Scout26

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2011, 12:36:24 AM »
Sounds like it.  But, most mechanized light cavalry or infantry recon units in the Army since WWII have been of this flavor.  I think the MP's have ripped many pages from the recon/cav playbook, which is a fine place to start. 

Yep, especially when it came to "Rear Battle"  that's why once things got ugly in Iraq, they were converting FA and other types of units to MP companies. 

Problem with the MP Corps is that at least half think we're just cops, patrolling the base and let the Rear Battle mission fall by the wayside.   Then when the scheisse hits the fan, they like to throw MP's at the problem It's easy to send MP's, that way TPTB can point at 'em go "Hey, they're just do Law and Order operations." and everyone goes back to sleep.

It's a weird branch.

And yes, the Army was wedded to the "Fight on the Central Plains of Europe" simply because from the time the wall fell until 9/11 we didn't have an identified threat.   We played around in the Balkans, Haiti, and a little in the Mid-East (post DS/DS).   But there was no "OPFOR" to fight/train against, so we train for everything and nothing at the same time.   We won DS/DS but applying AirLand Battle Doctrine (The European Fight) in the perfect environment for Tacticians (but the perfect hell for Logisticans) after that we praticed fighting the war we won (Which did come in handy for GWII), but not for 9/11 and nor did we use the lessons learned from Post War Europe and Japan.  Those lessons, which woudl have been invaluable were all forgotten in the drive and fall of Baghdad.

The US military can't see into the future, nor does it remember anything beyond "How we won the last war."

   
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2011, 01:40:39 AM »
I actually was quite enamored with "the last hundred yards".  It appealed to my Recon sneakiness.  Not so good for the desert I suppose but I never got to go there.
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Scout26

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2011, 01:58:36 AM »
It all goes back to when SLA Marshal screwed up the Army in Men Against Fire.  He didn't ask the one all important question of the 75-85% that didn't fire their weapons on any given day.(1) - "Why not?"

The answer he would have gotten would have been:  "There was NOTHING" to shoot at."

American Infantry had been trained as Marksmen first and foremost (another important difference between us and our allies in WWI)

Marshall screwed that up and we ended up with the "Spray and Pray" tactics of Vietnam.

It was starting to come round right in 80's with a move toward more marksmanship training, but once you have a bunch of machine guns, it's hard to get rid of S&P.

What the Army needs is to find the balance (and weapons and tactics) that promote both Marksmanship (the Designated MarksMEN) along with an automatic weapon that provides covering fire to for the rest of the team/squad to maneuver under.

I like that Russian SAW.  Maybe TPTB should look into that as the SAW replacement.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2011, 10:38:09 AM »
Yep, especially when it came to "Rear Battle"  that's why once things got ugly in Iraq, they were converting FA and other types of units to MP companies. 

Problem with the MP Corps is that at least half think we're just cops, patrolling the base and let the Rear Battle mission fall by the wayside.   Then when the scheisse hits the fan, they like to throw MP's at the problem It's easy to send MP's, that way TPTB can point at 'em go "Hey, they're just do Law and Order operations." and everyone goes back to sleep.

It's a weird branch.

And yes, the Army was wedded to the "Fight on the Central Plains of Europe" simply because from the time the wall fell until 9/11 we didn't have an identified threat.   We played around in the Balkans, Haiti, and a little in the Mid-East (post DS/DS).   But there was no "OPFOR" to fight/train against, so we train for everything and nothing at the same time.   We won DS/DS but applying AirLand Battle Doctrine (The European Fight) in the perfect environment for Tacticians (but the perfect hell for Logisticans) after that we praticed fighting the war we won (Which did come in handy for GWII), but not for 9/11 and nor did we use the lessons learned from Post War Europe and Japan.  Those lessons, which woudl have been invaluable were all forgotten in the drive and fall of Baghdad.

The US military can't see into the future, nor does it remember anything beyond "How we won the last war."

   

The lack of a rear battle doctrine gave us Jessica Lynch, for example.  All the services adapted, though, and it seems that even the cooks are being spooled up before heading over.

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birdman

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2011, 12:29:27 PM »
The problem with that Russian one is while the weapon is light (About 19lbs), the ammo is heavy ~5lbs/100rnds for 7.62x54R vs 2.7lbs/100 for 5.56.  Considering a spare barrel is ~3lbs, even if you had to change barrels every 200rnds, the SAW with it's ammo and barrels would still be lighter since 200rnds of 5.56 + a barrel is lighter than 200 rnds of the Russian.   Now, if that weapon were made in a smaller caliber (5.45 Russian?) then it would be competitive, but why not simply make a lighter SAW with a better barrel?

Step 1: m46 mod0 modified SAW (<14 lbs)
Step 2:  finned high temp barrel +1lbs w/spare (+3lbs)

Now you have a weapon virtually the same weight as a normal saw with no spare barrel, uses the same lightweight ammo, and with barrel changes back and forth, and the fins cutting heat fast (on the gun or off), you should have a good setup.

What I'm wondering, is why not make a lightweight active cooling system?  The heat load of 500rnds/min average in the barrel is about 10kW...with a properly chosen high temp coolant, and compact radiator, why not?  Also...why not a combined radial heatpipe/finned heat exchanger barrel?

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2011, 12:44:48 PM »
The lack of a rear battle doctrine gave us Jessica Lynch, for example.  All the services adapted, though, and it seems that even the cooks are being spooled up before heading over.

Yes, and no.  Rear Battle Doctrine was that the clerks and jerks would be holed up in fixed positions (of multiple support units) providing their own security with MP units serving as a reaction force should the OPFOR attack their position.  Also it was expected that if those type units had to move that MP's would provide Convoy Security to those units when they moved.  The problem was (and is) that there are not nearly enough MP's to go around.
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Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
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roo_ster

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2011, 03:25:14 PM »
The problem with that Russian one is while the weapon is light (About 19lbs), the ammo is heavy ~5lbs/100rnds for 7.62x54R vs 2.7lbs/100 for 5.56.  Considering a spare barrel is ~3lbs, even if you had to change barrels every 200rnds, the SAW with it's ammo and barrels would still be lighter since 200rnds of 5.56 + a barrel is lighter than 200 rnds of the Russian.   Now, if that weapon were made in a smaller caliber (5.45 Russian?) then it would be competitive, but why not simply make a lighter SAW with a better barrel?

Step 1: m46 mod0 modified SAW (<14 lbs)
Step 2:  finned high temp barrel +1lbs w/spare (+3lbs)

Now you have a weapon virtually the same weight as a normal saw with no spare barrel, uses the same lightweight ammo, and with barrel changes back and forth, and the fins cutting heat fast (on the gun or off), you should have a good setup.

What I'm wondering, is why not make a lightweight active cooling system?  The heat load of 500rnds/min average in the barrel is about 10kW...with a properly chosen high temp coolant, and compact radiator, why not?  Also...why not a combined radial heatpipe/finned heat exchanger barrel?

You have a fine idea for making our M249 better.

7.62x54R or 7.62NATO is more effective than 5.56NATO or 5.45x39 (terminally) and has greater effective range.  If they wanted a 5.45Russian SAW/LMG like you describe, they would have started with the RPK74 not PK.  I suspect they wanted 7.62x54R punch.

I think pressurized active cooling would be a bad idea, both from a power source & mass POV, but also the "highly pressurized gas with thin containment vessel" POV.
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roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2011, 03:36:23 PM »
The RPK74... was not well-loved with the Russian servicemen, and its passing has been unmourned.
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birdman

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2011, 05:27:55 PM »
Didn't say pressurized :).  There are plenty of low pressure, high temp cooling fluids (liquid silicones) that are effectively inert, but work well.  Most automobile exhaust valves are internally liquid cooled (they are hollow and filled with sodium, which liquified under operation and carries heat from the seat and face), with no active parts.

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2011, 05:32:12 PM »
And yes, I agree they went with the 7.62x54R for range and punch, but we are discussing a squad weapon, man carried, and not on a tripod, so the 400m effective range of the 5.56, combined with its lower weight per round (important for suppressive fire applications), and the improved terminal ballistics of the new 5.56 round (m855a1) should make it sufficient.  Such a system would retain the huge investment in ammo, training, depot spares and maint. Already in place for the m249, but improve performance where it counts.

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #69 on: July 23, 2011, 07:00:00 PM »
they could always go with a gatling design, but stationary until the barrel is to hot, then a bolt which would cycle to the next barrel. 2 would be a plenty. 3 easier to swap between. [popcorn] at least it would look cool. >:D :laugh:

birdman

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Re: Army eyes lightweight SAW replacement
« Reply #70 on: July 23, 2011, 07:05:46 PM »
Easier to just have spare barrel and make sure you have two gunners who aren't both reloading or changing barrels at the same time.  Or just have an extra barrel behind your two plates duck taped together, so you can absorb hits while swapping the, :).