Terrorist attacks in Norway

[Jocassee]

Newspaper comment posters are not people. We knew this.

QFT

[280plus]

I just copied micros take and sent it to my local anti gun tv station for review.

The thing is, the Islamic fudamentalist nut jobs LOVE that you think of them first when something blows up and mass casualties occur. It's part of their plan. I thought muslims when OK city blew up. Or actually I thought "it better not be the muslims". I did not think that this time, I knew it could be but did not automatically decide that it was. I waited till I heard what the official story was. The dude is so smart he doesn't realize he played right into their hands. This is what they want. Lone wolf nutjobs or teams thereof wreaking havoc at random for any reason knowing full well radical Muslims will be the first thing to pop into everybody's head. They couldn't care less what the perpetrator's ideaology is.

[Balog]

You mean like the usual suspects assuming it was a Muslim terrorist when this first hit the news?

Chris

You mean like it was reported, and like the group claimed responsibility? It's like Amy Winehouse. Known alcoholic heroin addict dies, saying "It was probably an overdose" is not a vile and hateful over reaction, it's the logical thought. Bomb goes off in a W European .gov center, after a radical Islamist cleric makes death threats to that .gov? Yeah, thinking it was an act of Islamic terror proves how horrid and racist I am. 


In any case, this is a horrific tragedy. Sad it'll be exploited. And it's amazing the bastard was able to kill so many. Very sophisticated and well executed plan for such an insane person.

[MicroBalrog]

We all know minor islamic groups love posting 'responsibility' claims wherever the balloon goes up and that such claims are most often baseless, right? (in that the specific group may not have done it). Even when the terrorists are actually Jihadis,  you may end up with 2-3 claims of responsibility when only one group has done it.

[Scout26]

Very sophisticated and well executed plan for such an insane person.

Insane =/= Stupid.

And as to some of the name calling.  Yes, initially it was a Muslim group that claimed responsibility, Helpers of Global Jihad, IIRC.  Why would you claim you did it if you did NOT do it.  If you are benevolent and peace-loving as you claim then those groups would be out there denying that they did it.

This guys strikes me as another Unabomber type.  He's a looney, and has his own flying-mammal-excrement insane reason for doing what he did.  In fact we will get to hear his reason when he goes to court. 

I'll bet it's a long rambling diatribe against any and everything and make absolutely no rational sense and at the end everyone will be scratching their heads, with eyebrows all scrunched up going WTF did he just say ?

A 1500 page manifesto?  And you expect to find one coherent idea running through the entire thing?   

[MicroBalrog]

And as to some of the name calling.  Yes, initially it was a Muslim group that claimed responsibility, Helpers of Global Jihad, IIRC.  Why would you claim you did it if you did NOT do it.  If you are benevolent and peace-loving as you claim then those groups would be out there denying that they did it.

Terrorist groups - especially religious terrorist groups - are by definition not peace-loving. They often claim terror attacks they never committed specifically so they can gather more supporters and raise more donations.

[longeyes]

"The sleep of reason breeds monsters." (Goya)  That includes governments as well as deranged gunmen.

[KD5NRH]

And as to some of the name calling.  Yes, initially it was a Muslim group that claimed responsibility, Helpers of Global Jihad, IIRC.  Why would you claim you did it if you did NOT do it.  If you are benevolent and peace-loving as you claim then those groups would be out there denying that they did it.

IMO, those claims should be treated as unsolicited (and thus, not coerced) confessions and acted upon immediately.  Bomb the snot out of anybody who claims credit for an attack just as soon as your fastest bombers can deliver, and you'll see a lot less of them jumping up to be the next target.

[De Selby]

Well, now that his manifesto is out it's clear that he was inspired by the writings of people like Daniel Pipes and Robert Spencer, along with other anti-jihadists. 

I have been told repeatedly that because muslim terrorists cite the Quran as inspiration, there must be some connection that Muslims ought to disavow.

Does this mean that all of the anti-Islam, cultural rightists now have to make news appearances condemning violence in the name of their beliefs?

[Scout26]

We already do....

[De Selby]

We already do....

I agree with you - but look at how many of the posters here responded to Muslim condemnations of violence.  They were ignored or we were directed to what the terrorists say inspired them

[Hawkmoon]

Well Ron, that's the part of the problem - you've started with blaming groups in Islam, and then gone straight to "let's just blame the lone nut job on this one.".

See the contradiction there? 

It didn't take long for an Islamicist group to claim credit. By the time I saw the very first report on the incidents, "the media" were already reporting that [some Islamicist group] had claimed credit.

[MicroBalrog]

It didn't take long for an Islamicist group to claim credit. By the time I saw the very first report on the incidents, "the media" were already reporting that [some Islamicist group] had claimed credit.

And we've already explained N+1 times in this thread why this is an entirely meaningless piece of information in this context.

[De Selby]

The important thing here is not to blame conservatives or anti-Muslim types - it's to recognize that those groups, and many people here, have been all too quick and happy to play the blame game when it suits their politics.  It's wrong to do it to Muslims, wrong to do it to leftists, and just as wrong to do it to "right wingers."

There is something to said about toning down the "x group declared war and wants to enslave you!" rhetoric.  When Muslims engaged in constant demonization of America for political reasons, the result was that mentally unstable extremists hopped on board and decided to "defend" against their demonic enemies through terrorism.

Now precisely the same thing is happening to right wing, anti-immigrant, anti-leftist movements.  They've spent all the past decade claiming that anyone with a leftist economic policy or a tolerant view of Islam is conspiring to destroy the western world.  Now theyre blogging shocked, shocked that someone actually believed their claims about the Muslim/leftist plots enough to consider violence in response. 

[MicroBalrog]

Oh I'm quite sure Progressives are damaging the fabric of our society.... but that is another issue.

[Perd Hapley]

You mean like it was reported, and like the group claimed responsibility? It's like Amy Winehouse. Known alcoholic heroin addict dies, saying "It was probably an overdose" is not a vile and hateful over reaction, it's the logical thought. Bomb goes off in a W European .gov center, after a radical Islamist cleric makes death threats to that .gov? Yeah, thinking it was an act of Islamic terror proves how horrid and racist I am. 

It's a shame we must say, much less defend, something so obvious. If terrorism is immediately blamed on Islam, who is to be blamed but bin Laden and company?

[MicroBalrog]

It's a shame we must say, much less defend, something so obvious. If terrorism is immediately blamed on Islam, who is to be blamed but bin Laden and company?

The same sort of people that we point fingers on when terrorism is unfairly blamed on other communities - people jumping to conclusions that confirm their biases.

We've explained several times in this thread why the fact that some group claimed responsibility does not necessarily mean anything.

[longeyes]

The important thing here is not to blame conservatives or anti-Muslim types - it's to recognize that those groups, and many people here, have been all too quick and happy to play the blame game when it suits their politics.  It's wrong to do it to Muslims, wrong to do it to leftists, and just as wrong to do it to "right wingers."

There is something to said about toning down the "x group declared war and wants to enslave you!" rhetoric.  When Muslims engaged in constant demonization of America for political reasons, the result was that mentally unstable extremists hopped on board and decided to "defend" against their demonic enemies through terrorism.

Now precisely the same thing is happening to right wing, anti-immigrant, anti-leftist movements.  They've spent all the past decade claiming that anyone with a leftist economic policy or a tolerant view of Islam is conspiring to destroy the western world.  Now theyre blogging shocked, shocked that someone actually believed their claims about the Muslim/leftist plots enough to consider violence in response. 

What you call "the blame game" is in fact "History," the collision of disparate self-identifying, self-protective, self-vaunting collective cultural identities.

What happened in Oslo does not change the underlying realities of who, in the mass, is doing what to whom, and this includes both readily identifiable sides of the conflict.  For every Breivik there are X number of Ahmeds.  Such people are not anomalies, they are predictable expressions of collective manias.  The goal should be to avoid surrendering to unreason and destructive violence, nothing else.

[MicroBalrog]

Elsewhere, in Sweden... FAIL.

[KD5NRH]

Elsewhere, in Sweden... FAIL.

"a type of semi-automatic weapon which is almost of military origin"

Almost of military origin?  Isn't that like almost pregnant or a little bit dead?

[Perd Hapley]

The same sort of people that we point fingers on when terrorism is unfairly blamed on other communities - people jumping to conclusions that confirm their biases.

Then we're talking about two different phenomena. There is a large and substantive difference between idle speculation based on a general familiarity with current events, and the sort of unfair blame and conclusion-jumping of which you speak.

Some of you are taking our little conversation way too seriously, as if Muslims were being harassed just by our making guesses and chit-chatting.

[MicroBalrog]

Some of you are taking our little conversation way too seriously, as if Muslims were being harassed just by our making guesses and chit-chatting.

Muslims are being harassed, of course - to the same extent that everybody else is.

What bothers me is the fictional idea that we face some kind of existential threat, that the illiterate goatherds will any moment now burst into Rome and declare "Vae Victis".

[perhaps they might. Remember how it worked for the guy who coined it?]

[longeyes]

When one man can erase a nation's cultural history there is an existential threat.  Of course not all existential threats are from radical Muslims.  The West is doing a great job of imperiling its future through financial excess right now.

***

Here's Geert Wilders on "Oslo:"

Statement of Geert Wilders concerning the massacre in Norway

The brutal murder of dozens of innocent Norwegian civilians several days ago has shocked the Freedom Party (Dutch PVV). We mourn and stand by the Norwegian people who suffer from a massive blow.

The manifesto of the perpetrator makes clear that this is a madman. He wants to work with Al Qaeda (which he cherishes great admiration for), craves the bombing of cities, dreams of knights that surgically mutilate themselves, and wants to meet his hero Karadzic.

Breivik also refers to the Netherlands. That the fight against Islam is violently abused by a psychopath is disgusting and a slap in the face of the global anti-Islamic movement. It fills me with disgust that the perpetrator refers to the PVV and me in his manifesto.

Neither PVV nor I are responsible for a lone idiot who twisted and violently abused the freedom-loving anti-Islamization ideals, no matter how much some people would like that. We are democrats at heart. The Freedom Party has never, ever called for violence and will never do. We believe in the power of the ballot box and the wisdom of the voter. Not bombs and guns.

We fight for a democratic and nonviolent means against the further Islamisation of society and will continue to do so. The preservation of our freedom and security is our only goal.

— Geert Wilders

[Viking]

Elsewhere, in Sweden... FAIL.

Unnecessary law (from their point of view), considering the cops have taken it on themselves to not issue licenses for Mini-14 rifles any more.

[Doggy Daddy]

We've explained several times in this thread why the fact that some group claimed responsibility does not necessarily mean anything.

But it means, at the least, that they will use the most abhorrent, vile acts to promote their cause and/or gain support whether they had anything to do with the execution of that act at all.  That it's the terrorist's version of stolen valor says a lot about what they consider to be valorous behavior.

DD