Author Topic: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design  (Read 1766 times)

roo_ster

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The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« on: November 18, 2011, 11:23:19 AM »
We bought a new Honda Element in 2004.  Since 2004, we have put 180k miles on it.  Lots of it highway travel.  Since it is an auto owned by me, it gets good PM according to the book, except I don't trust the book on oil changes and have kept them more frequent at ~3000 miles.

We bought the 2WD flavor, not the AWD flavor.  You know, the AWD one that shows folks driving it on the beach, in the mountains, along rocky trails, near lava flows with arty simulators, etc.  We didn't do that.  Oh, it went on a few gravel roads and once on a somewhat less well-maintained gravel road at Big Bend NP.

It has had an easier life than my wife's 1995 Honda Civic, which she drove 180k miles before giving it to her dad, who put on another 220k miles as of last month.

I mention limits of engineering & design because we are in the process replacing almost every bit of front suspension bits on the critter.  Pretty much everything inward of the rotors/wheel bearings to where it all mates up the the unibody, toss in a motor mount for good measure.

By the time all is said & paid for, we will have spent what it is worth on the used auto market.  Given where we are financially and how my wife wants to allocate her time between kids/work/school, that is the smartest answer.

I have gawked at the old parts as they have come off and look at the bits still on that need replacing.  Yup, they are toast. Right now we have gotten to the point it is no longer dangerous and merely unpleasant to drive.  We need new front tires so that we see how the rest of the front suspension lines up.

I suspect this has occurred because the Element pushes the limits of design.  See, the Element was developed from the CRX which was developed from the Civic, which is a spunky little 4 seat people-mover.  You know, the one favored for fart-box modification by the adolescent crowd.  Honda decided to beef it up and blow it out a bit into the CRX.  The CRX & Element also got the bigger & heavier Honda Accord I4 motor & tranny.  Then, it decided to go all-out and blew the platform out to the maximum and created the rolling breadbox Element.  The Element ended up at 3600+ lbs dry weight, what with all the reinforcing of the cabin area to stiffen it up.

No, I haven't done a thorough analysis of the design, but I have a good idea what things look like when they are pressed beyond their design limits.  Like the Ford Ranger one employer used to haul a tractor on a tandem axle trailer.  Or the Ditch Witch used to trench in rocky soil.  Or my Kel-Tec P-40(1).  Also, this is not the only Honda product to get into trouble pushing its design limits.  The Honda Ridgeline is notorious for having its suspension self-destruct when pushed a bit.

I compare these to my late, lamented 1997 Nissan Extended Cab Pickup(2), also in the 180k mile range when it was "totaled."  Body on frame construction.  Torsion bar front suspension.  Longitudinally mounted I4 motor, RWD, 5sp manual (with original clutch).  That truck was stoutly built and I never outrageously pushed it past its design limits. 











(1) .40S&W in a 14oz package.  There is a reason I only take t to the range every 6 months.  I don;t expect it to digest thousands of rounds like my SW1911.


(2) IT LIVES!  I saw it on the road three times since I signed it over to the insurance company, "totaled."  Same exact tires, trim, and paint dings, excpet the front passenger side that got crunched.  Somebody bought it under a salvage title and fixed it up.




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roo_ster

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cfabe

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2011, 12:42:23 PM »
So, in summary:

1. Your vehicle with a designed lifetime of 150k miles needed a front end rebuild at 180k miles.
2. A pickup truck is built stronger than a car-platform compact crossover

I've seen lots of vehicles with relatively light duty require major front end work well under 100k miles. I think you did pretty good.

Brad Johnson

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2011, 12:51:21 PM »
A full suspension rebuild at 180k is... amazing.  Amazing that you got it to last that long.  As a rule of thumb on light-duty passenger vehicles I begin replacing suspension parts at 80-100k beginning with the most comming wear points (bushings, ball joints, and CV/u-joints) and progressing through wear items like seals and bearings.  Over 30-40k I will have completely rebuilt the suspension with new, top-shelf components.  I begin at 50-70k for heavy duty vehicles like Dad's service rigs.

I'd say your Honda was darn well engineered to have gotten that kind of life out of it and still be in rebuildable condition.  As for putting as much money in is as it's worth on the market, that's almost an irrelevancy.  It's costing you less, far less, than what a new vehicle would, and you don't have to deal with depreciation.

Brad
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 02:03:43 PM by Brad Johnson »
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roo_ster

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2011, 01:52:46 PM »
Odd, I have owned/driven several vehicles into the 180-200k range and this is the first time I have had this sort of experience rebuilding a front suspension that is completely whipped.  Oh, I've driven work trucks or other commercial vehicles that have needed such.  They were worked much harder than any of my personal vehicles.  Also, I have replaced bits here & there, mostly FWD bits like half shafts, boots & such.
85 Audi 4000S (~250k miles)
86 Audi 4000CS Quattro
86 Ford Escort GT (though, it did develop squeaks over time)
95 Civic EX (~400k miles, finally starting to crap out)
97 Nissan pickup

Then there are those my dad or mom owned to ~200K miles, that I either had a hand in maintaining or was kept informed as to maint issues:
1978 Pontiac Grand Prix (~250k miles)
1998 Nissan Maxima
1985 Ford T-bird
1986 Ford T-bird
1995 Nissan Alitma (this one did barely make it to ~200k, but it was not suspension issues that killed it)

Frankly, given previous experience with Civic-derived Hondas and Jap autos in general, I expected better.  If my experience is exceptional, I think I will avoid any of the usual FWD platforms and gravitate toward truck-based autos.

Regards,

roo_ster

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2011, 02:14:08 PM »

I suspect this has occurred because the Element pushes the limits of design.  See, the Element was developed from the CRX which was developed from the Civic.

You mean the CR-V.  The CRX was a 2-seat Civic.

 The Honda Ridgeline is notorious for having its suspension self-destruct when pushed a bit.

The Ridgeline is not a truck, though it looks like one.  I wonder how many oblivious owners try using it as one, not knowing the difference between unibody and body-on-frame construction.



cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2011, 03:06:28 PM »
my crv is getting new front end at 248 k  probably needed it at 220.
doing it mostly myself and with labor only for the stuff i'm chicken om  gonna be about a grand including 4 struts ans the alignments.  maybe 1100.  i beat this puppy pretty good do a 150 mile a day rural paper route with it. its not as sturdy as my ford f250 but i don't expect it to be . and i can assure you i am way past design limits.i've but 80 bundles of news papers in and on it. and put 50 in at least once a week. figure bundles at 35 pounds or so.
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roo_ster

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2011, 05:03:49 PM »
You mean the CR-V.  The CRX was a 2-seat Civic.

The Ridgeline is not a truck, though it looks like one.  I wonder how many oblivious owners try using it as one, not knowing the difference between unibody and body-on-frame construction.

Yes CRV.

I know some folks who were excited "Honda is finally putting out a pickup."
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roo_ster

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Nick1911

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2011, 05:06:21 PM »
Yes CRV.

I know some folks who were excited "Honda is finally putting out a pickup."

Meh.  I'll be excited when Honda finally starts putting out chainsaws.  >:D

charby

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2011, 05:23:43 PM »
Meh.  I'll be excited when Honda finally starts putting out chainsaws.  >:D

ditto here
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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2011, 05:45:07 PM »
ditto here

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2011, 06:07:38 PM »
Look at the GVW rating on that vehicle. Compare it to the curb weight. Now, can you honestly tell me that you haven't grossly exceeded that difference by hundreds of pounds on a regular basis during those miles? What kind of roads were you on? All smooth Interstate? How much city? Makes a heck of a difference.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2011, 06:51:09 PM »
oh heck yes  i'm right impressed with the lil beast.  heck i towed a 17 foot bass boat with it. its much stronger than reasonable
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Northwoods

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2011, 09:35:01 PM »
SWMBO's '97 Camry has needed a new front end for quite a while.  We got it with 65k on the odometer.  It's now a little over double that.  I suspect though that we'll not bother with the work and eventually sell it and buy a minivan or similar.  3 kids and their boosters/infant carriers fit in the back seat, but it's tough to get the infant carrier in and out.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2011, 09:43:22 PM »
My Focus has 180k and although it needs quite a bit of work, the important bits--including suspension--are fine. Kinda' glad I didn't get a used Element with 150k on it a couple years as I had considered doing.

Always had a soft spot for that car. It came out when I was selling for Honda and I got to demo it at the Detroit Auto Show (which, as one might guess, is a BIG deal affair in this town.) But what you say makes a lot of sense. And even brand new it was just a little...unbalanced. Big box on a little frame. 

geronimotwo

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2011, 06:16:47 PM »
as long as we're on the subject of underdesigned vehicles,  i stopped buying ford products after our '95 windstar gave up its transmission for the third time in 110k miles.  my 7 passenger van was using the same transmission that had been the standard for thier 5 passenger taurus. when i was watching the second rebuild i noticed the clutchpack was about the size of a large motorcycles.
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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2011, 09:04:17 PM »
Quote
Look at the GVW rating on that vehicle. Compare it to the curb weight

Local news channel did a story on how many of the compact 4 door cars were easily overloaded...very similar situation to aircraft such as the Cessna 172 and other 4 cyl 4 seat aircraft...you can't fill the seats and tanks and still be within weight limits.


Personally I have always owned and driven trucks or truck based vehicles and refrained from overloading cargo and towing capabilities. It's safer and puts less wear and tear on the vehicles...

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Perd Hapley

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2011, 09:42:28 PM »
Honda is making cages now? When did that start?
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birdman

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2011, 08:25:19 AM »
as long as we're on the subject of underdesigned vehicles,  i stopped buying ford products after our '95 windstar gave up its transmission for the third time in 110k miles.  my 7 passenger van was using the same transmission that had been the standard for thier 5 passenger taurus. when i was watching the second rebuild i noticed the clutchpack was about the size of a large motorcycles.

On a "its the engineering, not the size of the clutch that maters" point:
1. my motorcycle makes more power, and the clutch has to withstand almost as much torque (due to primary drive ratio) than a 95 windstar makes.
2. The clutch packs in my GTR are not much bigger than a bikes...and can handle ungodly abuse
3. F1 clutches are minuscule

Anyway, I still like ford products, but with all products, careful shopping and research wil give you insight into the engineering...larger vehicles based on the platform and/or drivetrain of smaller or different purpose vehicles will always have problems (cough...crossovers...cough)

ssn vet

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2011, 03:05:58 PM »
from my limited reading, I've ascertained that the smallest econoboxes are actually over built, because there is a minimum size you can build standard design parts to (form-function-factor stuff) and that size is usually more robust than is actually needed for the likes of a Civic.

Case in point, my older brother actually drove the origonal Civic with a 2 speed automatic that burned regular gas, well beyond the switchover to unleaded by most vehicles.  The thing was like a go-kart on steroids, and seemed to be indestructible.

Perhaps your Element (my wife's uncle has one and loves it, MIL has the Toyota equivalent and loves it too) is more in the norm for vehicle size, weight in relation to suspension component size, and hence, isn't performing as well as the Civic.
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ssn vet

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2011, 03:09:03 PM »
Quote
'95 windstar gave up its transmission for the third time in 110k miles. 


Friends had exactly the same experience... the Windstar sure was a dud.
"aint no slack in fast attack"

birdman

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Re: The Honda Element and the Limits of Engineering & Design
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2011, 07:02:21 PM »
from my limited reading, I've ascertained that the smallest econoboxes are actually over built, because there is a minimum size you can build standard design parts to (form-function-factor stuff) and that size is usually more robust than is actually needed for the likes of a Civic.

Case in point, my older brother actually drove the origonal Civic with a 2 speed automatic that burned regular gas, well beyond the switchover to unleaded by most vehicles.  The thing was like a go-kart on steroids, and seemed to be indestructible.


The d16 in most older civics IS effectively indestructible.  Some friends were doing a b18c5 swap (integra type-r motor) into one, so they decided to see what punishment it could take.
Step 1, drain all the oil and coolant
Step 2, drive around in 1st gear only, accelerating as much and as hard as possible 
After about 20-30 annoying miles, the engine still wouldn't die, so...
Step 3, put civic on jack stands, brick on accelerator and bang it off the rev limiter until it dies.

45 minutes later, it seized....after nearly an hour at 7000rpm with no coolant or oil.