Plumbing Is Never Easy In Old Houses (AKA: WTH Am I Paying You For, Again?)

[roo_ster]

Dishwasher ate the dust last week.  It was a scratch/dent I bought 10 years ago for $165, so I've no right to complain about its service.

Ordered new one and since I was busy this week, paid the extra $80 for "installation."  

I use scare quotes because the installer took one look at my existing setup and said, "What's that big pipe doing there?"  He was referring to the water supply, T-ed off with nice flexible 5/8" copper pipe off the hot water pipe supplying the sink.  Yes, it was overkill 10 years ago when I put it in, but that is what was there before and it damn sure did not leak in those 10 years.  

"I was expecting a little pipe, see this" as he shows me a pretty braided hose with 3/8" compression couplings.  "And besides, there is no water cutoff," he says.  I point out that I own a channel lock and know how to cut the water off at the street.  No love.

"So," I ask, "for you to uh, 'install,' the dishwasher, you have to have conditions such that all you have to do is turn off a valve, unscrew one coupling, screw on another couple couplings, turn on the valve, and shove it in where the old washer went."  His response was something about company policy.  My response was, "I'll only sign off on your delivery if we make absolutely certain on the paperwork you did no installation-like motions whatsoever.  And I get your company on the horn agreeing to refund the installation fee."

Silly me, I expected a dude with a plumbing kit and <gasp> the ability to sweat pipe.  Not that he'd need to sweat pipe to get my washer in, but like the availability (but not actuality) of Corinthian Leather to Ricardo Montablan, it would have pleased me.  I should have recalled that 10 years ago I paid a plumber $240 to take up an hour of my time, chip my new tub, and fail to correctly sweat pipe so as to give me the incentive to learn for my own self and clean up after the "pro."

So, here I am, taking a break from Home Depot trip #1, readying myself for HD trip #2, where I will by a 5/8" compression cap/plug, a 3/8 to 3/8 braided hose to tap into the sink hot water valve and feed a 3/8comp T, which will feed both washer and sink with their own pretty braided hoses.

Plumbing is never easy in an old house.

And then there was the guy at Discount Tire...

[K Frame]

I'm getting ready to do some plumbing in my Mom's house, which ought to be fun.

1903 Victorian with a healthy mix of galvanized iron, copper, some bronze, PVC, CPVC, and ABS.

I *^$^$%)(*&#$%#(*&^)(&*U^$ love working on her house...

[Boomhauer]

You know how on the TV show This Old House everything always goes quickly, fits together perfectly and always works the first time?

Yeah, well, that *expletive deleted*it don't happen in real life. I'd have more luck finding a unicorn that farts rainbows than to have a project/task go smoothly and quickly when it comes to home improvement/contracting type work.

[wmenorr67]

You know how on the TV show This Old House everything always goes quickly, fits together perfectly and always works the first time?

Yeah, well, that *expletive deleted* don't happen in real life. I'd have more luck finding a unicorn that farts rainbows than to have a project/task go smoothly and quickly when it comes to home improvement/contracting type work.

They have the benefit of editing.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

did you get the install from homedepot or lowes or some such?  that might explain the trouble.  their pay scale/system precludes getting real quality except by accident

[roo_ster]

I'm getting ready to do some plumbing in my Mom's house, which ought to be fun.

1903 Victorian with a healthy mix of galvanized iron, copper, some bronze, PVC, CPVC, and ABS.

I *^$^$%)(*&#$%#(*&^)(&*U^$ love working on her house...

I sense a serious transgression against The Order Of The Universe on your part in a past life.  Looks to me The Universe is getting payback.

did you get the install from homedepot or lowes or some such?  that might explain the trouble.  their pay scale/system precludes getting real quality except by accident

No, the GE internal overstock/scratch/dent/whatever web site.  They use the local GE/Dart subs.  My dad used to run & set up logistics and service for GE.  After he retired, they hired a bunch of Harvard MBAs who managed to cock up both systems.  They hired my dad back as a consultant to fix the bright boys' "innovations," but were not willing to give my dad the authority necessary.  My dad finally burned his bridges and told the head of the appliance division and all his toadies, "*expletive deleted*ck off.  You all have *expletive deleted*it for brains.  I'm going to see my grandkids."

[MillCreek]

did you get the install from homedepot or lowes or some such?  that might explain the trouble.  their pay scale/system precludes getting real quality except by accident

You know, I have to say that my recent buying of my Maytag dishwasher from Lowe's along with the installation went just swimmingly. A nice young man, who also has his own plumbing business came out and installed it. He needed no assistance from me, delivered and installed the new unit, hauled away the old unit and cleaned up after himself.  I told him how impressed I was that he used no bad words, which I always do during plumbing projects. He laughed and said he tried to only use them when the customer was not around.  I was down on the floor alongside him during the test cycle, where he showed me that the input and drain connections were leaktight at the dishwasher, and supply and drain line hookups.

I also point out that although it was not mentioned in the ad, the Lowe's salesperson told me that I could save $ 100 of the existing sales price by choosing a solid color, as opposed to stainless, front panel.  So the Maytag dishwasher that usually goes for $ 600 normal price, and was on sale for $ 549, I got for $ 449 in black.  And they called the day after installation to make sure that everything was working and I was happy with the dishwasher and installation.

I would give serious thought to buying from Lowe's again.

[Perd Hapley]

Ah, that all-too-rare specimen; the satisfied customer.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

what was the install fee? from lowes?  the way it works is they get 33 percent of that  then whats left goes to the installer.  if you have to go pick up the appliance and travel bring a helper the margin is small.  what further complicates it is that often the sub contracting company will hire  someone. another slice off that pie. i did installs for lowes and home depot and they made it unprofitable for us. one guy working alone is the only way to make it work and if you run into complications lowes etc will not pay more. dishwashers are usually a real easy install but some subs only know how to handle easy installs.  thats more common with so many "new construction" guys in remodeling due to the downturn in new construction.

[zxcvbob]

So, here I am, taking a break from Home Depot trip #1, readying myself for HD trip #2, where I will by a 5/8" compression cap/plug, a 3/8 to 3/8 braided hose to tap into the sink hot water valve and feed a 3/8comp T, which will feed both washer and sink with their own pretty braided hoses.

If I'm visualizing this correctly, the easiest thing to use would be a 5/8 compression x 3/8 compression quarter-turn shutoff and a braided hose.  That gets you everything in one $5 fitting and you don't have to disturb the sink supply lines, and as a bonus you get a cutoff for the dishwasher.

[MillCreek]

what was the install fee? from lowes?  the way it works is they get 33 percent of that  then whats left goes to the installer.  if you have to go pick up the appliance and travel bring a helper the margin is small.  what further complicates it is that often the sub contracting company will hire  someone. another slice off that pie. i did installs for lowes and home depot and they made it unprofitable for us. one guy working alone is the only way to make it work and if you run into complications lowes etc will not pay more. dishwashers are usually a real easy install but some subs only know how to handle easy installs.  thats more common with so many "new construction" guys in remodeling due to the downturn in new construction.

I just went and looked at my receipt: $ 119 for a dishwasher install.  The guy at Lowe's said that they contracted directly with the installers and did not use a sub.  He said that Sears used subs who then used installers.  And my installer, Sean, worked by himself. He was in and out of the house in 65 minutes.

PS: and we will remember my recent installation of a new garbage disposal. $ 160 installation fee for that from Lowe's, so I did it myself.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

lowes used to skim 35 percent of my labor.

[Monkeyleg]

Well, roo_ster, luckily you knew what was involved with a proper installation. I can't say I'd not have a shutoff right at the washer (had our washing machine flood the hardwoood-floored kitchen a year ago), but you knew when someone was trying to bamboozle you.

I wonder how many people pay and not realize the guy is doing little more than pushing the appliance into place?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

vis a vis flooding they make "anti flood shutoffs" now  if a line breaks they sense the runaway and limit it to a gallon or 2. couple extra bucks well spent

[roo_ster]

If I'm visualizing this correctly, the easiest thing to use would be a 5/8 compression x 3/8 compression quarter-turn shutoff and a braided hose.  That gets you everything in one $5 fitting and you don't have to disturb the sink supply lines, and as a bonus you get a cutoff for the dishwasher.

And if I saw such a critter at either HD or Lowes nearby, I would have jumped for joy.  I didn't even see the parts to make such a critter without a couple pieces of copper pipe.  I had/have hopes to manage it with all compression couplings & braided hoses.

I did, however, see a 3/8" T-connector not shaped like a T that allowed me to get just the cap, the line to the washer, and the not-T.  Slap that on the cutoff valve that serves the sink and I'm in business.

It is all hooked up now, but the thrice-damned 5/8" compression cap leaks.  At first, it was a slim jet.  So I used some teflon tape.  After the teflon tape, it was a slow drip.  SO slow, it was almost a "wait & see if it stops on its own" slow drip.  But, I wanted to nail it shut, so I cranked it down a little more...and that made it drip worse.  I think I am going to remove the teflon tape and run with goopy compound.  Not supposed to have to do this on a compression fitting.

I hate plumbing.  If I could get someone to do it like MillCreek, I would have done so.

vis a vis flooding they make "anti flood shutoffs" now  if a line breaks they sense the runaway and limit it to a gallon or 2. couple extra bucks well spent

Next time I'll use those.  I just want to put this SOB to bed.

[roo_ster]

Oh, and one more thing...sabatuers.

When I reached for my teflon tape, all that was on the counter was the blue ring that contains the spool.  WTH?

I search about and then I confront the kiddos.  "Did either of you take my white teflon tape?"

It turns out my daughter wanted to decorate the dwarf buford holly bushes to look like Christmas trees. 

I gathered up enough teflon tape for the job and went back inside.

[Perd Hapley]

vis a vis flooding they make "anti flood shutoffs" now  if a line breaks they sense the runaway and limit it to a gallon or 2. couple extra bucks well spent

My previous dishwasher supply line was one of those. It started leaking under the sink after a few years. When I replaced it, it I went with the standard line, no shut-off. I guess I blamed the anti-flood cut-off for the leak. [shrug] I guess I'll never know if I was correct.

[Tallpine]

After thirty years with the same dishwasher, I doubt that I will ever get another 

[zxcvbob]

And if I saw such a critter [5/8 x 3/8 compression shutoff valve] at either HD or Lowes nearby, I would have jumped for joy.  I didn't even see the parts to make such a critter without a couple pieces of copper pipe.  I had/have hopes to manage it with all compression couplings & braided hoses.

I bought one at HD a couple of months ago for a similar plumbing misadventure in our 100+ year old church.  (the plumbing is not that old, obviously, I don't know when it was plumbed.)  The box may have said 1/2" instead of 5/8", referring to the ID instead of the OD.  It wasn't easy to find the right one; I remember the marking were deceiving.

BTW, your first leak sounds small enough that it would have quickly plugged itself if you have hard water.

[roo_ster]

BTW, your first leak sounds small enough that it would have quickly plugged itself if you have hard water.

It was.

And we do.

 

[roo_ster]

Pipe joint compound FTW.

Did I mention I HATE plumbing work?

[wmenorr67]

After thirty years with the same dishwasher, I doubt that I will ever get another 

What happens if she dies before you do?

[KD5NRH]

So, here I am, taking a break from Home Depot trip #1, readying myself for HD trip #2, where I will by a 5/8" compression cap/plug, a 3/8 to 3/8 braided hose to tap into the sink hot water valve and feed a 3/8comp T, which will feed both washer and sink with their own pretty braided hoses.

Go ahead and put a shutoff in there while you've got it all apart anyway.  It's always nice to have one close if something does go wrong.

[K Frame]

"I sense a serious transgression against The Order Of The Universe on your part in a past life.  Looks to me The Universe is getting payback."

No, not really. I've learned how to adapt, and I have to put a LOT more time into planning that I would otherwise.

Where I get really nervous, though, is working with the electric in that place.

My Grandfather partially rewired it in the 1950s with cloth romex and a new main service. Then there's also some new circuits with plastic sheathed romex. Then there's the low-voltage actuated systems in part of the house. Then there's the real special stuff -- the cloth, tar, and gutta percha wrapped knob and tube that still serves outlets on the exterior walls of the house.

[RoadKingLarry]

After thirty years with the same dishwasher, I doubt that I will ever get another 

Sounds like we may have similar models.
Mine sprung a leak last night though, seems "somebody" put a paring knife in the sink. So after I spent all afternoon splitting firewood I had to come in, "patch" the leak then finish the dishes.